Clean, natural power vs. signature sound ?

[zachoff]

I'm an SVT/810 guy but you can definitely hear differences between basses through that rig.

My RD Artist sounded way different from my BB1000 sounded way different from my MIJ P sounded way different from my Reverend sounded way different from my G&L L-2000 sounded way different from my SB-2 sounded way different from my T-40. Not sure if the "natural tone of the bass" came through but you could definitely hear differences and they weren't minor differences by any stretch.

[rimbaud]

Originally Posted by matthewfoote

Peter

For myself I prefer the Clean, natural approach. This is because I subscribe to the theory that you can always add something to a clean natural sound to get a wide variety of different tones, sounds etc. Whilst if an amp/cab has a "signature" tone, it is harder, if not impossible to remove it and get a natural more cleaner sound.

I use a Clarus AI into an Epifani 1x10 UL and a Accugroove Tri 112L. A very clean neutral tone. It can on occassions be described as a little "sterile" as you put it, so I have added a Sans Amp stomp box at the front of the chain to give me some grunt if I need it. I use a Sei fretless bass which has both magnetic and piezo pickups so I wanted something that would reproduce the sound of the bass and my fingers and for me I think I have succeeded.

However I went to watch a friend playing in a pub gig last week where he used an Ashdown ABM 500 and an Ashdown 4x10. It really kicked and for the music, which was rock covers it was perfect. Horses for courses!

This is probably a debate which might not have any difinative answer because each person hears the bass in a different way and has their own idea of what sound they are after. I also suspect that the choice depends to a degree what gear the local shops. stock.

An interesting thread what do others think. And Peter, what do you use, or what sound do you like/are you searching for.

Regards

Matthew

I've been playing this ABM first era made in the UK, with the same cab and it really kills I agree, and also SWR redhead and SM 400 that are supposed to be clean. In my opinion the ABM is a clean stuff, the cab is not, that's why....

I also played Ampeg's SVT-CL with a 8X10, not the same animal as the others. Of course playing this big balls rig on a large venue was a real fun and pleasure, specially for a blues gig....

But I do prefer clean stuff, as I recently got a Markbass LMII.

My father always told me something while tinkering a piece of wood: you can always cut, but never add.
It's the opposite with an amp: you can always add, never cut. If yours is too "typical" it will be difficult for you to get something really flat, ask Ampeg users about getting a real flat EQ..... that's not their goal after all.

OTOH can you get those tones with a clean amp by adding a tube DI (like the REDDI) or some tube preamps ? some purists will of course tell you "no", there's an Ampeg signature sound, as a P signature sound that you can never really get exactly the same with a jazz neck pickup for example.

But I stand on the fact taht you can have similar tones by adding some gears, it will gives the ability to be versatile.

That's why I always say to "all tube signature tone guys": you throw away $ 3000 to get a killer Ampeg, and when you discover some other music that need something really clean and flat, you can't have it.

....And you can have all the tones you want with a 3 000 $ rig containing clean amp, high end preamps, DI's and pedals.... and beeing able to switch to what you want when it needs to.

Not saying that those signature high end amps are pussies, of course not, but if you want to be a versatile bassist playing many genres, think about all that.....

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by rimbaud

I've been playing this ABM first era made in the UK, with the same cab and it really kills I agree, and also SWR redhead and SM 400 that are supposed to be clean. In my opinion the ABM is a clean stuff, the cab is not, that's why....

I also played Ampeg's SVT-CL with a 8X10, not the same animal as the others. Of course playing this big balls rig on a large venue was a real fun and pleasure, specially for a blues gig....

But I do prefer clean stuff, as I recently got a Markbass LMII.

My father always told me something while tinkering a piece of wood: you can always cut, but never add.
It's the opposite with an amp: you can always add, never cut. If yours is too "typical" it will be difficult for you to get something really flat, ask Ampeg users about getting a real flat EQ..... that's not their goal after all.

OTOH can you get those tones with a clean amp by adding a tube DI (like the REDDI) or some tube preamps ? some purists will of course tell you "no", there's an Ampeg signature sound, as a P signature sound that you can never really get exactly the same with a jazz neck pickup for example.

But I stand on the fact taht you can have similar tones by adding some gears, it will gives the ability to be versatile.

That's why I always say to "all tube signature tone guys": you throw away $ 3000 to get a killer Ampeg, and when you discover some other music that need something really clean and flat, you can't have it.

....And you can have all the tones you want with a 3 000 $ rig containing clean amp, high end preamps, DI's and pedals.... and beeing able to switch to what you want when it needs to.

Not saying that those signature high end amps are pussies, of course not, but if you want to be a versatile bassist playing many genres, think about all that.....

Hi, versatile bassist playing many genres here. I've played I don't know how many different kinds of amps on gigs over 35 years. I've never failed to get a good sound out of any that weren't broken no matter what type of music I was playing. But the SVT/810 has always been my favorite choice for everything, no matter what type of music, even though I don't use mine as often as I used to because I'm old Versatility comes from the player, not the gear. Everyone needs to make their own choices about what's best for what they do, but if I go see a band and the bass doesn't sound good, I'm not blaming the gear.

[rickdog]

Originally Posted by doublestop

* the Signature Sound school. In this school the amp + cab is an instrument to with its own voice, that you may or may not like. Trace Elliot. Ampeg. Etc. Pros: a warm, recognisable tone. Cons: you don't hear the natural tone of the instrument. Muddy.

Everything between my fingers and the air in front of the speaker cones is part of the instrument. My SVT-3PRO sure imposes its signature sound; but it is very responsive to the differences between my basses and even the differences in tones I can get from each bass. It modifies and enhances the natural tone of my basses, and I don't think the result is "muddy" at all.

I happen to like the sound of tubes driven into at least a little distortion. The completely hi-fi sound doesn't work for me, but I've heard bassists for whom it's perfect.

[rimbaud]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Hi, versatile bassist playing many genres here. I've played I don't know how many different kinds of amps on gigs over 35 years. I've never failed to get a good sound out of any that weren't broken no matter what type of music I was playing. But the SVT/810 has always been my favorite choice for everything, no matter what type of music, even though I don't use mine as often as I used to because I'm old Versatility comes from the player, not the gear. Everyone needs to make their own choices about what's best for what they do, but if I go see a band and the bass doesn't sound good, I'm not blaming the gear.

An ampeg endorser proudly replying !!!

Ok I'm not a 35 years player, .... only 20.... certainly have not used as much gear as you but... as I said, try to get a flat EQ with your Ampeg and come back....

I'm not blaming those brands of course as I previously said, just saying that for a guy discovering the whole world of amps, starting with a clean one is also a way to a better understanding of EQing, how to cut in a mix, how frequencies does affect wrongly or rightly your tone, and your place in the band.

When you know all that yes of course you make your choice, but I stand still there: less possibilities technically speaking with a signature tone amp...

[Foz]

I go see a band and the bass doesn't sound good, I'm not blaming the gear.

+1

Great players sound pretty darn good whatever they are using on any given night.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by rimbaud

An ampeg endorser proudly replying !!!

Ok I'm not a 35 years player, .... only 20.... certainly have not used as much gear as you but... as I said, try to get a flat EQ with your Ampeg and come back....

I've done it on every single SVT I ever played. Bass 11:00, mids 2:30-3:00 @ 800hz, treble 2:00. Matched it up by ear to an LMII. Sounds pretty flat to me.

I'm not blaming those brands of course as I previously said, just saying that for a guy discovering the whole world of amps, starting with a clean one is also a way to a better understanding of EQing, how to cut in a mix, how frequencies does affect wrongly or rightly your tone, and your place in the band.

Who says tube amps aren't clean? I never run my tube amps dirty. See, that 20 year period is right around the time when grunge bands hit, so new bass players thought of tube amps as only capable of dirt, for some weird reason. Whereas us old farts actually came up in an era when bass players used tube amps for clean sounds and they had no such preconceived ideas as yours. We had preferences for different amps, sure, but it certainly wasn't only tube for dirt, SS for clean.

When you know all that yes of course you make your choice, but I stand still there: less possibilities technically speaking with a signature tone amp...

What is a signature tone amp? On every single amp I've played, I move the knobs and the tone changes, therefore how can it have a signature?

Oh, and I've only been an endorser a little over a year. I've played Ampegs since the beginning with only a couple short breaks in between. If I wasn't an endorser, I'd still play them. I never say something about gear I don't mean. I suggest you get to know who you're talking to before you start throwing around the tired old "endorsement discrediting" ploy.

[Nev375]

I usually judge a rig on how hard it is to find a good useable tone.

On my Kern pre/ Stewart power amp it seems to really not matter which way you turn the controls, they all sound good in their own way, and finding the sweet spot usually only takes a few seconds. I would call this a somewhat colored tube preamp, but it is extremely versatile and "musical" sounding. (yes, I know that's a stupid adjective, but there's really not a word for what I'm describing)

My Ampeg PB800 is an extremely clean SS head that would probably fit into the sterile clean category. Despite being very transparent, the tone controls are hard to zero in on the right sound. Unlike the Kern, there's a lot of bad settings and in the end its usually best to leave it pretty flat.

It's not a bad head despite the bad sounding review and its my rig of choice simply because it's lighter than my rack setup. Like Jimmy said, Sounding good is all about you, not the gear. In the end, most of the finer tones we fawn over from boutique gear we play isolated do not make it through the stage rig, venue acoustics and band mix the audience hears.

[Gaolee]

Beats me what the difference is. What does a P-Bass really sound like? I don't know. What does an EB-2 really sound like? I don't know. What does a Thunderbird really sound like. I don't know that, either. I don't know much of anything, apparently. What I do know is how to make them sound good through the amplifiers I own. That's about it. Clean? Maybe it is. I don't know. Put some test equipment on it and I suppose it might mean something. Probably not, though.

I play old Acoustic solid state equipment for the same reason Jimmy plays through Ampeg. I know what it does, and that's pretty much it.

[BBQV]

I don't like the hi-tech, clean sound of the first example. The sonic limitations of old school gear is part of the sound I like. I think it's because I grew up listening to, and playing, that type of music. When I think of bass I hear the sound of a Precision Bass through a tube amp, preferably pushed a tad too hard.

It's not a question of right or wrong, it's just my preference. Whatever blows your hair back.

[lowphatbass]

I like to think I'm getting a "signature tone" regardless of whether I'm using a modern pre/power setup through a EA cab or a Sunn 200S through an old pair of JBL 15's. Sure, they're quite different, but you can still hear me and the bass I'm playing.

As others have said, there is no right answer.

[chadds]

Originally Posted by Doner Designs

I know this is an ancient thread, but the topic is roughly where I was headed, so why start another.

Today, just for yaks, I lined up my three rigs side by side in the basement. I have a Markbass 1x12 combo (with matching ext cab), a GK 1x12 combo and an Acoustic 1x15 combo.

When comparing the three set to flat (12pm), the brightness (primarily defined by presence of mids, since my flatwound strings and playing style kill the highs) of the three varied dramatically. It was a real eye opener on how different amps/cabs are voiced.

Ironically, the Acoustic (a 1x15) was the brightest closely followed by the Markbass. The GK was very deep and maybe scooped.

I know what tone I like but I don't know what is truly "flat".

Interestingly when the VLE and VPF controls on the Markbass are both set at noon - an easy way to roll off highs and mids ("flat" for those two dials is 7am) the MB roughly matches the GK flat setting.

To make the Acoustic match the GK, I had to put the bass up to 3pm and dial back the mids to 9am.

The GK also has a scoop (contour) button which I did not have in the scooping position.

I dont really have a question here. Just thinking out loud and really surprised to see how much amps/cabs vary.

The choice of bass is for me the determining factor. Many passive basses need the enhancement that a fat tube amp can bring. Many active basses can sound so fat even flat that I want a rig that stays out of the way.

[CL400Peavey]

Everyone will have their personal preference, and different tones sound good in different settings.

Personally I like to have a variety of tones. I have a big tube amp: it sounds great and is actually pretty versatile. It can be clean, or I can drive it to be dirty. If I only had one amp this would be it, as it can sit in just about any mix. I also have big lead sled SS amps. These have a ton of slam, and sound great. They dont break up like a tube amp, but are fairly warm, and are wonderful in their own way. Right now my favorite amp to use is my Tonehammer pre, into my ART channel strip, in to a power amp. I can go from crazy Hi-Fi to old school dirty with a foot switch. I end up using both sounds frequently and love being able to go between both.

[beans-on-toast]

In a mix, I find that a bit of dirt from pushing the amp adds harmonic complexity to the tone. For the lack of a better characterization, it adds feeling, a sense of urgency, and emotion to the sound.

Muddy and muted like there is a blanket over the cab is something else and not desirable.

[phillybass101]

Hey, I'm a colored sound man. LOL!!!!!!

Puma500
Trace Elliot GP7 SM 300
SWR Working Man's 4004
BBE Sonic Maximizer

[topcat2069]

I like the sound of my Bass.... I just want it louder...

When I was playing my Lakland 55-01 all the time I tried some fEarful cabs with my GK head and the combination didn't sound good at all to me... a little better with the tweeter off but it showed me that the sound of the Bass was too harsh, not the amp or fEarful cabs..... so sometimes clean & clear isn't the best choice.

[grendle]

Originally Posted by chaosMK

A lot of classic gear is muddy, but not all. There are pretty hifi, bright, and detailed Signature Tones too.

For me OD is almost a whole category of it's own.

+1

no right or wrong just what works for you.

[vpermana]

Which school is Aguilar amp and cab?
Thanks

[LiquidMidnight]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Hi, versatile bassist playing many genres here. I've played I don't know how many different kinds of amps on gigs over 35 years. I've never failed to get a good sound out of any that weren't broken no matter what type of music I was playing. But the SVT/810 has always been my favorite choice for everything, no matter what type of music, even though I don't use mine as often as I used to because I'm old Versatility comes from the player, not the gear. Everyone needs to make their own choices about what's best for what they do, but if I go see a band and the bass doesn't sound good, I'm not blaming the gear.

+1

Bass amps generally aren't as "context specific" as many guitar amps are. For instance, I probably wouldn't do a jazz gig on a Krank or play death metal on a Fender Twin Reverb, but I've played everything from Pantera to Nitty Gritty Dirt Band with my Mesa 400+, and it worked great in both contexts.

[seamonkey]

Clean transparent, and add signal processing to get any past familiar sound.
And leaves the door wide open for any new sounds you can create.