From combo to head/cab for gigging

[hrodbert696]

OK, I know there are a gazillion "what amp should I get" threads and yes, I have been reading them. But just in case folks have nothing better to do, an amp noob would appreciate feedback on my situation:

I'm in a rock cover band, just about ready to start putting ourselves out there to try and get gigs -- you're usual bar/club type stuff. In practice, I play with an Ampeg BA-115 combo amp, which puts 220 watts into a 1x15. I've never had to turn the volume above about a 2 in practice so I've always figured that I had plenty of power.

So we go to an open mic, where they have a Hartke LH500 into a 4x10 cab, the volume was set to 3 or 4 when I got there and then the sound guy starts turning it up when we're playing (yes, a sound guy who wanted more bass -- God bless him). I didn't check how high he took it, I'm assuming 5 or 6.

Now I'm worried that the volume at 5 from a 500-watt amp is going to translate to cranking my 220-watt combo up to 13 to get the same result, if I were to take it out on a gig in a similar sized place. Is that a fair assessment or does it not work that way?

Now I don't have a lot of money to throw at this situation. Actually, I don't have any, but I can plan to scrape some together to get myself gig-ready at the absolute minimum cost (any more than the minimum and the mrs will have my head -- and not an amp head). Looking at our local Craigslist around here, there's a guy selling a Peavey pro 500 head for $200 and another guy selling a Hartke 210 XL cab at $140. If I got a second XL cab new, I'm thinking that translates into the Peavey with 350 watts at 4 ohms into two 210s, with the whole setup costing about $550 at the prices I'm seeing.

The Hartkes are rated 200 watts at 8 ohms so does that mean they'll take up to 400 at 4 ohms, or that this will blow them up? I have way too much education but math still stymies me.

There's another guy on the local CL selling a peavey mark 4 head with a matching 215 cab for $300. Better deal? Better sound?

Thanks for helping to straighten out an amp noob!

[Dethrats]

would you always have PA support at gigs?

if so use your ampeg combo as a stage monitor and let the FoH do its job.

[stu1965]

why cant you use what you have, and DI out to the PA

[sricks3]

Well, a 4x10 cabinet will almost always be louder than a 1x15 given the same amount of power from the same head simply because the speaker area of a 4x10 is a little more than 314 sq in while that of a 1x15 is a little over 177 sq in.

Also, some would say that, depending on the cab/amp choices, a 4x10 will give you more "clarity" than a 1x15.

Of course, the extra ~280 watts will produce a hefty amount of volume assuming the amps are fairly efficient.

There are a lot of high-powered, "micro" heads out there now that could easily push a 4x10 to considerable volumes. You should also be able to find pretty good used gear at low prices. I recently even saw a new Peavey Tour 700 head with a matching 4x10 cab for just under $800 at a local store. I'm a big fan of Peavey amps and I almost picked it up on the spot.

[sricks3]

Oh, and good call by the other guys on the DI option. I'm not sure why I didn't mention that as that's the way I typically go. I just use my amp for monitoring. A good DI is a good investment, and your amp already has one built in.

[hrodbert696]

Thanks for the quick responses so far -- DI to the PA had occurred to me and I know I can always do that. I raised the question because I assume that there are going to be times when it will be impossible or undesirable to do so. They do sell these rigs for a reason, no?

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by hrodbert696

Thanks for the quick responses so far -- DI to the PA had occurred to me and I know I can always do that. I raised the question because I assume that there are going to be times when it will be impossible or undesirable to do so. They do sell these rigs for a reason, no?

yes they do. and usually, a 300w amp + a 410 is enough for most folks, even in that situation. and despite me greatly preferring an 810, it's the rig i usually recommend to people looking to upgrade from a combo cheaply since 410's are plentiful and cheap on the used market.

however, if you have a line on two 210's at a decent price, i'd go for it. two 210's stacked vertically will give you a lot more throw than a regular 410.

[jeff7bass]

I would try out the Ampeg first, it should be plenty loud but bring a block of wood with you so you can tilt it back a little if you need to hear it better. Then make a decision.

[RickenBoogie]

If the combo doesn't quite cut it, then look for a head in the 300-500 watt range, and more importantly, a good speaker cab, 4x10, 2x12, or bigger. it's really all about the speakers.

[butchblack]

Originally Posted by hrodbert696

OK, I know there are a gazillion "what amp should I get" threads and yes, I have been reading them. But just in case folks have nothing better to do, an amp noob would appreciate feedback on my situation:

I'm in a rock cover band, just about ready to start putting ourselves out there to try and get gigs -- you're usual bar/club type stuff. In practice, I play with an Ampeg BA-115 combo amp, which puts 220 watts into a 1x15. I've never had to turn the volume above about a 2 in practice so I've always figured that I had plenty of power.

So we go to an open mic, where they have a Hartke LH500 into a 4x10 cab, the volume was set to 3 or 4 when I got there and then the sound guy starts turning it up when we're playing (yes, a sound guy who wanted more bass -- God bless him). I didn't check how high he took it, I'm assuming 5 or 6.

Now I'm worried that the volume at 5 from a 500-watt amp is going to translate to cranking my 220-watt combo up to 13 to get the same result, if I were to take it out on a gig in a similar sized place. Is that a fair assessment or does it not work that way?

Now I don't have a lot of money to throw at this situation. Actually, I don't have any, but I can plan to scrape some together to get myself gig-ready at the absolute minimum cost (any more than the minimum and the mrs will have my head -- and not an amp head). Looking at our local Craigslist around here, there's a guy selling a Peavey pro 500 head for $200 and another guy selling a Hartke 210 XL cab at $140. If I got a second XL cab new, I'm thinking that translates into the Peavey with 350 watts at 4 ohms into two 210s, with the whole setup costing about $550 at the prices I'm seeing.

The Hartkes are rated 200 watts at 8 ohms so does that mean they'll take up to 400 at 4 ohms, or that this will blow them up? I have way too much education but math still stymies me.

There's another guy on the local CL selling a peavey mark 4 head with a matching 215 cab for $300. Better deal? Better sound?

Thanks for helping to straighten out an amp noob!

A couple of things. First 2 200W 8Ω cabs will be able to handle 400W at 4Ω as long as your head will support 4 Ω which most if not all will

Second, depending how the other settings on the amp were set 3 or 4 on the volume knob might not be that loud. So before going out and spending $ you don't have try your combo in an actual bar setting with your band. Have someone you know listen in the audience to let you know if you're loud enough as it's not always easy to tell how you sound in the audience when you're on stage.

Third, if you're playing a passive bass you could try a pre-amp. The stomp box ones start under $100.

If you do decide to change your rig the advice about using a 410 or one or two 212s is good as more speaker area can give you more volume every thing else being equal.

Here's a chart with the speaker area of many common cab configurations in sq. inches

210 157.08
112 113.09
212 226.19
115 176.71


210+112 270.17
210+212 383.27
410 314.16
210+410 471.24

Hope this helps

[sleepytime]

Originally Posted by hrodbert696

OK, I know there are a gazillion "what amp should I get" threads and yes, I have been reading them. But just in case folks have nothing better to do, an amp noob would appreciate feedback on my situation:

I'm in a rock cover band, just about ready to start putting ourselves out there to try and get gigs -- you're usual bar/club type stuff. In practice, I play with an Ampeg BA-115 combo amp, which puts 220 watts into a 1x15. I've never had to turn the volume above about a 2 in practice so I've always figured that I had plenty of power.

So we go to an open mic, where they have a Hartke LH500 into a 4x10 cab, the volume was set to 3 or 4 when I got there and then the sound guy starts turning it up when we're playing (yes, a sound guy who wanted more bass -- God bless him). I didn't check how high he took it, I'm assuming 5 or 6.

Now I'm worried that the volume at 5 from a 500-watt amp is going to translate to cranking my 220-watt combo up to 13 to get the same result, if I were to take it out on a gig in a similar sized place. Is that a fair assessment or does it not work that way?

The volume on the LH500 increases more slowly than most amps and doesn't really start to kick in until after 6 or so. I would guess that at 6 it is making less than 220W, definitely if it is an 8-ohm cab.

Now I don't have a lot of money to throw at this situation. Actually, I don't have any, but I can plan to scrape some together to get myself gig-ready at the absolute minimum cost (any more than the minimum and the mrs will have my head -- and not an amp head). Looking at our local Craigslist around here, there's a guy selling a Peavey pro 500 head for $200 and another guy selling a Hartke 210 XL cab at $140. If I got a second XL cab new, I'm thinking that translates into the Peavey with 350 watts at 4 ohms into two 210s, with the whole setup costing about $550 at the prices I'm seeing.

Think about a better 410 instead of 2 Hartke XL's, unless you happen to prefer them.

The Hartkes are rated 200 watts at 8 ohms so does that mean they'll take up to 400 at 4 ohms, or that this will blow them up? I have way too much education but math still stymies me.

You are confusing cab specs with amp specs. Cabs are a set impedance and have a thermal rating at that impedance. Solid state amps make more power at lower impedance, and that is where you get X watts @ 8 ohms and Y watts @ 4 ohms. However, a second 8 ohm cab in parallel would reduce the impedance to 4 ohms and double the the power handling, if that is what you meant.

If you power a cab at its max thermal rating you are asking for trouble. The physical limitations of the drivers will usually be reached at lower power.

There's another guy on the local CL selling a peavey mark 4 head with a matching 215 cab for $300. Better deal? Better sound?

Thanks for helping to straighten out an amp noob!

I'm not sure that would be much of an upgrade from what you have. You could probably score a 300-500 watt amp and a decent 410 for not much more. The wife will just have to understand.

[hrodbert696]

Excellent excellent excellent, guys -- this is the sort of advice I was looking for. I'm going to start saving, hold off on purchases till I've tried the Ampeg in a real setting, and take it from there. But now when the time comes I have a much clearer idea of what I should look for.