Confused and disgusted! (speaker related)

KingBollock · #1 06-28-2010, 06:25 PM

A couple of weeks ago I decided to buy a proper bass speaker, the first one I've owned for years as I never play outside of music room. I decided to buy from Maplins, this one to be exact: http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?...20900&DOY=25m4
I've been a little suspicious about what I actually got as it is terrible at low frequencies, it farts like a Cow when I go any lower than the G on the E string and it HATES my 5 string. So I decided to have a look to see if they made a mistake and sent me the wrong speaker. The model number matches but I found this: http://www.adamhall.com/uk/AH_K--Bet...t_27__b--EB15A
Which looks far more like what I actually got. The usable frequency range being 45Hz-3.7kHz and not the 35Hz to 4kHz quoted on the Maplins page. I'm going to email them and complain but I have a feeling I'm not going to get very far, they've always tried their best to be as unhelpful as possible in the past.
Oh well, thought I'd warn people if even to make myself feel a little better.

Bass_Pounder · #2 06-28-2010, 06:30 PM

What did you mount the speaker in ?

You can't just throw any speaker into any box.

If it is not the right size, or the port tuned properly, the speaker will sound like crap and may even get damaged by your playing it

KingBollock · #3 06-28-2010, 06:52 PM

It's in a proper Bass speaker cab. It actually sounds really nice until I try to play low. The problem is that the frequency response is too high. I just looked on the Eminence site and they have it as 45hz to 3.7khz, not 35hz to 4khz as Maplins claim. The only other bass speaker that they say is suitable for bass guitar is rated at 40hz to 4khz but the Eminence site has it at 48hz to 4khz. This is a plain case of Maplins telling lies. If their frequency claims were true, they would be suitable for Bass Guitar.
I bought it because I had heard good things about the Eminence Greenbacks but even though that's what's pictured on the Maplins site, that's not what I got.

Bass_Pounder · #4 06-28-2010, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingBollock

It's in a proper Bass speaker cab. It actually sounds really nice until I try to play low. The problem is that the frequency response is too high. I just looked on the Eminence site and they have it as 45hz to 3.7khz, not 35hz to 4khz as Maplins claim. The only other bass speaker that they say is suitable for bass guitar is rated at 40hz to 4khz but the Eminence site has it at 48hz to 4khz. This is a plain case of Maplins telling lies. If their frequency claims were true, they would be suitable for Bass Guitar.
I bought it because I had heard good things about the Eminence Greenbacks but even though that's what's pictured on the Maplins site, that's not what I got.

Just because it is in a "proper bass box" does not mean that the internal volume (cu ft) and the tuning is matched to the speaker.

There is way more to a cab than mounting a speaker in a box.

If you do not have the right size box, or the proper tuning to the specs of the speaker - it will not perform well, and could be damaged just by your using it.

Jeff Scott · #5 06-28-2010, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bass_Pounder

Just because it is in a "proper bass box" does not mean that the internal volume (cu ft) and the tuning is matched to the speaker.

There is way more to a cab than mounting a speaker in a box.

If you do not have the right size box, or the proper tuning to the specs of the speaker - it will not perform well, and could be damaged just by your using it.

+10000000000

JimmyM · #6 06-28-2010, 07:22 PM

sorry but those guys are right. maplin's did nothing wrong. and frequency specs mean nothing unless you research your cab's internal volume and porting and get the right speaker for it.

BurningSkies · #7 06-28-2010, 08:56 PM

Sounds like its in the wrong sized box... too small...or with improper porting for the speaker. Hard to tell what with not so much information. The Beta 15 is not a bad speaker.

billfitzmaurice · #8 06-28-2010, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BurningSkies

Sounds like its in the wrong sized box... too small...or with improper porting for the speaker. Hard to tell what with not so much information. The Beta 15 is not a bad speaker.

It's a very good driver when properly employed, but that's with a lower powered amp. It does not have the ability to deliver high output at low frequencies.

BurningSkies · #9 06-28-2010, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

It's a very good driver when properly employed, but that's with a lower powered amp. It does not have the ability to deliver high output at low frequencies.

Well, it's not a 3015, but for a traditional setting and not screaming volume.

Petebass · #10 06-28-2010, 09:25 PM

I looked at the specs and off the top of my head, a QTS of 0.58 and a VAS of 11.82 cubic feet suggests this speaker should deal with low frequencies very well but it likes a very, very large cabinet. I fact I suspect this thing is capable of a -3dB point of close to 30Hz, but it'll need, I dunno 20cu feet of cabinet volume to get there. My guess it your box is much smaller than that.

Does anyone have access to cab design software or formula to confirm my mental calcs?

mulchor · #11 06-28-2010, 09:32 PM

Both websites include the full TS specs.

In light of other discussions on TB... full specs should be a good thing, if only they're accurate.

Of course you can never get good response for electric bass use if it's 45-3700 Hz.

mulchor · #12 06-28-2010, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petebass

I looked at the specs and off the top of my head, a QTS of 0.58 and a VAS of 11.82 cubic feet suggests this speaker should deal with low frequencies very well but it likes a very, very large cabinet. I fact I suspect this thing is capable of a -3dB point of close to 30Hz, but it'll need, I dunno 20cu feet of cabinet volume to get there. My guess it your box is much smaller than that.

Does anyone have access to cab design software or formula to confirm my mental calcs?

Eminence actually includes cabinet design suggestions.
http://eminence.com/proaudio_speaker...5&SUB_CAT_ID=2

billfitzmaurice · #13 06-28-2010, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petebass

I looked at the specs and off the top of my head, a QTS of 0.58 and a VAS of 11.82 cubic feet suggests this speaker should deal with low frequencies very well but it likes a very, very large cabinet. I fact I suspect this thing is capable of a -3dB point of close to 30Hz, but it'll need, I dunno 20cu feet of cabinet volume to get there. My guess it your box is much smaller than that.

Does anyone have access to cab design software or formula to confirm my mental calcs?

You're right that if you wanted to get it reasonably flat to 40 Hz or less it would take 15-20 cu ft net tuned to 25 Hz, which makes for one really long duct as well. In a typical 3 to 4 cu ft cab it will have a serious midbass hump, which works very well to get high output with low power, 100 watts or less, but the trade off is response below 70Hz. That's fine for vintage tone, not so much for a modern big-bottom, especially with a fiver. The OPs description is very much what one would expect from a vintage cab, and no surprise there, the Beta 15 has vintage specs.

Petebass · #14 06-28-2010, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

You're right that if you wanted to get it reasonably flat to 40 Hz or less it would take 15-20 cu ft net tuned to 25 Hz, which makes for one really long duct as well. In a typical 3 to 4 cu ft cab it will have a serious midbass hump, which works very well to get high output with low power, 100 watts or less, but the trade off is response below 70Hz. That's fine for vintage tone, not so much for a modern big-bottom, especially with a fiver. The OPs description is very much what one would expect from a vintage cab, and no surprise there, the Beta 15 has vintage specs.

I agree, as does the suggested designs on the eminence site.

KingBollock perhaps you can exchange the driver for something more suited to the cabinet you used? If you post the dimensions of the cabinet here, we can make some suggestions. Don't forget to include the measurement of the port(s) including depth.

KingBollock · #15 06-29-2010, 08:48 AM

It's not the cabinet. I exchanged like for like, a 350W bass speaker into a cab that I bought, newly built by the manufacturer, with a 350W bass speaker. The original speaker died when a mate dropped it while moving it for me. I fail to see what more I can do. I have also since tried it outside of a cabinet and also in a different cab that had had a 250W bass speaker in it. It reacted the same in every instance.

The fact is that Maplins state the usable frequency range as being 10hz lower than it's actual usable frequency range as stated by the speaker's manufacturer.

I have been playing and have worked around this stuff for over 20 years. I'm not some newbie, so please give me some credit.

masonsjax · #16 06-29-2010, 09:01 AM

Power handling (wattage) is not the most important spec when matching a cabinet to a speaker. The frequency range isn't what you expected, but most likely, the real reason you are not happy with the sound is because you aren't using it with a properly matched cabinet, as others have tried to tell you.

Mr. Foxen · #17 06-29-2010, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mulchor

Of course you can never get good response for electric bass use if it's 45-3700 Hz.

Fairly sure that is a completely fine range for electric bass use.

Pilgrim · #18 06-29-2010, 09:05 AM

You're not getting the message.

You have the:

WRONG

CABINET

FOR

THE

SPEAKER.

(More accurately, you have the wrong speaker for the cabinet. Amounts to the same thing.)

Unless it's mounted in an enclosure that has the proper size (internal volume) and port (if any is required) for that speaker, it will sound bad and not perform correctly. Just swapping a 350W speaker for another 350W speaker is not correct. The two speakers may be designed for cabinets that are completely different in size and porting. If you replace the original speaker with ANOTHER original speaker (same make and model), then you should be OK.

If this is difficult to understand, do some searching on TB for threads having to do with replacing speakers. You'll find plenty about this.

KingBollock · #19 06-29-2010, 09:17 AM

Granted the original speaker was 35hz to 4khz, that's why I bought the one that I did, it should have matched perfectly. However, as I keep saying, that's not what I got.
The cab has two ports. It also has two horns, one bullet and one 15" x 5" wide dispersal. I even tried it without fitting the horns, so there was nearly as much hole as there was face. If that didn't allow for air movement I don't know what would.

It mostly works as long as I keep the bass completely rolled off, but that's not the sound I want. Oh and this isn't happening at high volumes, this is still in the house at very low volumes.

FunkMetalBass · #20 06-29-2010, 09:22 AM

But, from what I can tell, you didn't replace it with the EXACT SAME SPEAKER, which is likely what the cabinet/box is tuned to work with. Not all 350W drivers are made equal.

I'll quote Pete:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petebass

KingBollock perhaps you can exchange the driver for something more suited to the cabinet you used? If you post the dimensions of the cabinet here, we can make some suggestions. Don't forget to include the measurement of the port(s) including depth.

Also, "usable frequency" is subjective and depends on the box the driver is put in.