Considering a custom cab business, have questions

[LilRay]

I'm considering starting a custom cab business ala Don @ LDS and DR. BASS and I have a few questions;

1. Any specialized equipment needed other than standard woodworking fare?

2. What degree would it benefit me to earn audio design wise?

3. What kind of capital is needed to start off?

4. Do you guys see a viable market space for another builder or is the demand being met by established builders.

I'm disabled and I have the time to get educated by an accredited school, I just need assisance as to which direction to travel first.

Any help is appreciated.



God Bless, Ray

[Smurf-o-Deth]

Originally Posted by LilRay

I'm considering starting a custom cab business ala... DR. BASS...

All you'll need for that is a willingness to cheat your suckers...er, customers.

Good luck!

[LilRay]

Originally Posted by Smurf-o-Deth

All you'll need for that is a willingness to cheat your suckers...er, customers.

Good luck!

OK so DR. BASS isn't a good business model but I used them simply for putting an affordable custom product out. If it gets to a DRB mudfest I'll delete the name.

I'm not a cheat and I'm not trying to be. I'm simply posing questions to try and establish a business that I have an affinity for and that I could possibly succeed at.

Contrary to my standard M/O, I'm not kidding on this



God Bless, Ray

[Mr. Foxen]

Can you explain what the baffle step is?

[rpsands]

I don't think there is money in custom cab building. I have no idea how Don makes a living. The markup is so slim and the overhead for dealing with issues is so high (stuff like things broken in shipping, unhappy customers, mistakes, etc.).

I think Duke (AK) and Alex (Barefaced) have the right of it; design something that serves a need that is not dealt with other ways.

Another option is to do what Leland from SH does (and a bunch of other BFM guys do) - Build someone else's established, solid plans.

[LilRay]

Originally Posted by Mr. Foxen

Can you explain what the baffle step is?

Something I'd trip over???? No I have no idea yet

Originally Posted by rpsands

I don't think there is money in custom cab building. I have no idea how Don makes a living. The markup is so slim and the overhead for dealing with issues is so high (stuff like things broken in shipping, unhappy customers, mistakes, etc.).

I think Duke (AK) and Alex (Barefaced) have the right of it; design something that serves a need that is not dealt with other ways.

Another option is to do what Leland from SH does (and a bunch of other BFM guys do) - Build someone else's established, solid plans.

Thanks for chiming in Ralf. I'd probably build from established plans at least until I got educated in what may be changed or altered to obtain a desired tone range.

I'd look for a spot in the market that I could start small and grow in both experience and production.

First things first would be education. Any ideas????



God Bless, Ray

[Mr. Foxen]

Are you from an engineering background at all? Coming at any music stuff from a technical standpoint before a musician's one is pretty important, because the musician side is where all the snake oil and excuses is. If you haven't got a grounding in woodwork, or acoustics, you've got to question why all the people that have aren't learning the part you are missing and doing what you plan to do.

Edit: I think it is fair to say I have a reasonable grasp of speaker theory at this point, and I learnt it almost entirely by reading BFM and AlexClaber amd Greenboy arguing with people, and googling the words I didn't know (and reading all the links they posted, even the really boring ones). I'd start by finding the first Fearful thread, and reading that, and everything it links to that isn't debunked in the following few posts, and see if you get really, really bored.

[LilRay]

I read voraciously, and I have no problem with formal education, but I am starting at 0 when it comes to acoustics/engineering.

Everyone starts there though, success comes by asking those who know the trade and how much you're willing to attack the information.

I'm just seeking info and help.



God Bless, Ray

[Sartori]

Have you thought about whether your products will have a certain "style," and as to what it would be if so?

For example, both Emperor cabs and Low Down Sound are custom builders, but their products are quite different from each other, generally speaking.

[rpsands]

I'd get an ee degree. Good all around skills and gives you lots of.other options. The carpentry side is easy to learn from a DIY book imho. Maybe a shop.class or so.

[DukeLeJeune]

Electrical engineering, acoustics, psychoacoustics, woodworking, computers. Not that you necessarily need degrees in all of these, but they all come into play (imho anyway).

Unless you can find a cirriculum that fits your goal, or a good academic advisor who will help you tailor one, much of what you need you'll have to learn on your own.

Here is some of the self-education part:

1. Go to the Eminence website, click on "Resources" and read everything that looks like it might apply.

2. Get "The Loudspeaker Design Cookbook", by Vance Dickason, and read it. Yeah it's about home audio, but the principles apply to bass cabs too.

3. Get "Premium Home Theater: Design and Construction", by Earl Geddes. Ignore the video chapters; the acoustics and psychoacoutics chapters are what you want.

4. While you're waiting for those books to arrive, search Talkbass for posts in the Amps section by BillFitzmaurice and greenboy. Read the ones that look applicable.

5. Join the Audio Engineering Society, and dive into their library. Start with early articles on loudspeakers, like back in the late 40's. The early articles are less math-intensive than the later ones.

6. If you speak calculus, I also recommend "Transducers", by Earl Geddes.

7. Select a loudspeaker design software package, and the hardware you need to go with it. I use the Linear X suite of software, but it's kinda pricey.

8. You need to be able to measure a woofer's Thiele/Small Parameters and frequency response on your own, because woofers don't necessarily match their published specs (and some models are way, way off). And nothing really matches its published frequency response curve. Anyway, make sure such T/S measurement capability is included in your software/hardware package or purchase something like the Smith & Larsen woofer tester.

9. Bunch more good books here: http://www.audioxpress.com/, to go "shopping" and then "books".

10. This is self-education that doesn't come from a book: Have a mission, a sense of purpose, instead of just a goal. If you don't yet, then start looking for it.

11. Be friends with your competitors. It's a big enough pond that the fishermen can all get along.

12. Possible alternative to 7 and 8: Hire a professional to do the design work for you, and concentrate on the production (and marketing) side. But the more you know, the better off you'll be.

Best of luck to you,

Duke

[LilRay]

Originally Posted by Sartori

Have you thought about whether your products will have a certain "style," and as to what it would be if so?

For example, both Emperor cabs and Low Down Sound are custom builders, but their products are quite different from each other, generally speaking.

I'd explore the market to determine most facets with the general premise of high quality at the most affordable pricing.

Originally Posted by rpsands

I'd get an ee degree. Good all around skills and gives you lots of.other options. The carpentry side is easy to learn from a DIY book imho. Maybe a shop.class or so.

If I learned what I needed to design/tweak the cabinets, I'd hire the woodwork out to somebody that could produce consistant and speedy results. If things turn out well, my Pop's wanting to retire from the construction industry and this may be a venture we could collaborate on together.



God Bless, Ray

[LilRay]

Originally Posted by DukeLeJeune

Electrical engineering, acoustics, psychoacoustics, woodworking, computers. Not that you necessarily need degrees in all of these, but they all come into play (imho anyway).

Unless you can find a cirriculum that fits your goal, or a good academic advisor who will help you tailor one, much of what you need you'll have to learn on your own.

Here is some of the self-education part:

1. Go to the Eminence website, click on "Resources" and read everything that looks like it might apply.

2. Get "The Loudspeaker Design Cookbook", by Vance Dickason, and read it. Yeah it's about home audio, but the principles apply to bass cabs too.

3. Get "Premium Home Theater: Design and Construction", by Earl Geddes. Ignore the video chapters; the acoustics and psychoacoutics chapters are what you want.

4. While you're waiting for those books to arrive, search Talkbass for posts in the Amps section by BillFitzmaurice and greenboy. Read the ones that look applicable.

5. Join the Audio Engineering Society, and dive into their library. Start with early articles on loudspeakers, like back in the late 40's. The early articles are less math-intensive than the later ones.

6. If you speak calculus, I also recommend "Transducers", by Earl Geddes.

7. Select a loudspeaker design software package, and the hardware you need to go with it. I use the Linear X suite of software, but it's kinda pricey.

8. You need to be able to measure a woofer's Thiele/Small Parameters and frequency response on your own, because woofers don't necessarily match their published specs (and some models are way, way off). And nothing really matches its published frequency response curve. Anyway, make sure such T/S measurement capability is included in your software/hardware package or purchase something like the Smith & Larsen woofer tester.

9. Bunch more good books here: http://www.audioxpress.com/, to go "shopping" and then "books".

10. This is self-education that doesn't come from a book: Have a mission, a sense of purpose, instead of just a goal. If you don't yet, then start looking for it.

11. Be friends with your competitors. It's a big enough pond that the fishermen can all get along.

12. Possible alternative to 7 and 8: Hire a professional to do the design work for you, and concentrate on the produciton side. But the more you know, the better off you'll be.

Best of luck to you,

Duke

Man Duke, Thanks a TON.

I'm on it brother. I'm on a mission from God .



God Bless, Ray

[UncleFluffy]

Originally Posted by DukeLeJeune

2. Get "The Loudspeaker Design Cookbook", by Vance Dickason, and read it. Yeah it's about home audio, but the principles apply to bass cabs too.

7. Select a loudspeaker design software package, and the hardware you need to go with it. I use the Linear X suite of software, but it's kinda pricey.

The 7th Edition Loudspeaker Design Cookbook comes with a coupon for a free copy of something called "LDC7 Design Suite Software". I just got the book so I'm not sure how good the software is but at least it's free (well, free after paying for the book, anyway).

(As far as hardware goes, if your PC is a bit long in the tooth I may have some goodies on the shelf to bring it a bit more up to date).

[kesslari]

Great advice from Duke.
The pond is big enough to support another fisherman

The key, IMO, to being successful in a field like this, is to figure out your business plan and what makes you different from similar businesses - what you really want to be and do in this arena.

I'd explore the market to determine most facets with the general premise of high quality at the most affordable pricing.

Can you break that down more? Avatar is one level of quality at one level of affordability, and is considered high value. LDS is a different level of quality at a different price point, and tends also to be considered high value. There is a huge difference in the amount of customization each is willing to perform. That's just 2 examples.
Think about it.
I wish you tremendous success.

[UncleFluffy]

The other thing I'd add is not specific to this business, but:

Play around with the sorts of things you're thinking of doing on a more formal basis. Are you having fun? Does it connect with you at some level? Do you think you'll still be having fun after a string of 60 hour weeks of it?

Specifically, I'd go see what Parts Express have on clearance, pick up some MDF (*) and Gorilla Glue at Home Depot, and just plain tinker with stuff for nothing more than the sheer joy of it for a while.



(* Yeah, I know MDF is evil, but it's easy to work with)

[thudfromafar]

Originally Posted by kesslari

Great advice from Duke.
The pond is big enough to support another fisherman

The key, IMO, to being successful in a field like this, is to figure out your business plan and what makes you different from similar businesses - what you really want to be and do in this arena.

Agreed. This may seem obvious to you or some other people... but think about what you can do for the community, not just what it can do for you.

[LilRay]

Originally Posted by UncleFluffy

The 7th Edition Loudspeaker Design Cookbook comes with a coupon for a free copy of something called "LDC7 Design Suite Software". I just got the book so I'm not sure how good the software is but at least it's free (well, free after paying for the book, anyway).

(As far as hardware goes, if your PC is a bit long in the tooth I may have some goodies on the shelf to bring it a bit more up to date).

Thanks Fluffy I'll probably build a PC specifically for this if the idea comes to fruition.

Originally Posted by kesslari

Great advice from Duke.
The pond is big enough to support another fisherman

The key, IMO, to being successful in a field like this, is to figure out your business plan and what makes you different from similar businesses - what you really want to be and do in this arena.


Can you break that down more? Avatar is one level of quality at one level of affordability, and is considered high value. LDS is a different level of quality at a different price point, and tends also to be considered high value. There is a huge difference in the amount of customization each is willing to perform. That's just 2 examples.
Think about it.
I wish you tremendous success.

I'd ultimately shoot for Bergantino quality and reputation, but I'd like to see a mid priced line designed for the working musician. The best parts available at an economic price, to establish myself.
Thank You for the well wishes.

Originally Posted by UncleFluffy

The other thing I'd add is not specific to this business, but:

Play around with the sorts of things you're thinking of doing on a more formal basis. Are you having fun? Does it connect with you at some level? Do you think you'll still be having fun after a string of 60 hour weeks of it?

Specifically, I'd go see what Parts Express have on clearance, pick up some MDF (*) and Gorilla Glue at Home Depot, and just plain tinker with stuff for nothing more than the sheer joy of it for a while.



(* Yeah, I know MDF is evil, but it's easy to work with)

Good idea Fluffy. Thanks!

Originally Posted by thudfromafar

Agreed. This may seem obvious to you or some other people... but think about what you can do for the community, not just what it can do for you.

Absolutely, this is after all a service oriented field. I'm here to serve others anyway.



God Bless, Ray

[Kahooli]

Originally Posted by thudfromafar

Agreed. This may seem obvious to you or some other people... but think about what you can do for the community, not just what it can do for you.

If you want personal advice on the subject from someone who has done this exact thing (for guitars), and well.... eventually failed... talk to this guy:

http://www.madisonamps.com/index2010

They made some really interesting things but the market didn't support em.

[TAZ]

If you are looking to be all "in house" with concept, prototype and manufacturing, you better get some carpentry/cabinetry skill and learn how to use the equipment.