Continuing my never-ending search for the correct reproduction of a low B-note.

[BruceWane]

Originally posted by vanselus


Now that's a damn good point - how do the big outdoor shows do it?

Basically, brute force.

They use multiple 2x18 or 4x18 cabinets and enormous amounts of wattage. When I say multiple cabinets, I mean that for an outdoor festival like Lollapalooza or Woodstock, you're probably looking at 60 to 100 2x18 cabinets being pushed with minimum 2000 watts per cab. It's not really uncommon for a typical arena show, INDOORS, to have a 300,000 watt PA........plus another 50-100,000 going to the stage monitors.............

There are some changes going on, moving things away from large numbers of front loaded subs, since bass horn design has come a long way recently. Bass horns are way more efficient than front loads, but they are very difficult to design and build properly for even, uncolored sound, so they haven't been very popular in the PA business. Companies like Servodrive and BassMaxx are making horn designs more accepted by using meticulously designed systems that typically use 1/4 as many cabinets and wattage as front-loaded sub systems to achieve the same spl while maintaining an even response.

[Wes Whitmore]

Bgavin,
You bring up an interesting question with the Adire. It may be for proaudio apps, but it isn't a paper ribbed surround. Will that matter? If not, why do some musicians want the paper ribber surround? I know you have used RF subs for bass cabs, and coming from the car audio world, I can understand why you are doing it, but does it color the sound negatively? Just wondering, because that Adire looks pretty interesting...
Wes

[Larry Kaye]

what about Glocks or other European manufacturers? I totally agree with the VMan. But in addition to the comments he made, I will say again that the SWR 4x8 and a 240 head will not get you a whole bunch of B string reproduction. Maybe the answer, since you don't have a lotta dough at 16 years old without doing something illegal, is to A. not worry about it 'cause it's too expensive and live with that fact you can't really afford what you want, as we adults have to very often. B. try a different bass, like a stingray 5, find one used on ebay if you can, that is known for having a much tighter B string that what you're using? C. Get a four string so you don't have to concern yourself with the low B....Jaco didn't play a 5, Jamerson didn't play a 5, many of the greatest bassists out there NEVER played a 5 string. Why are you? D. Drop out of school for a year, work full time at Belgiumeze "minimum" wages, selling chocolate, waffles, steak and fries, or Waterzooie (sorry I can't spell it, it tasted great when we were there!!)save up your money and buy a new head, better speakers (all mentioned in previous dumb post of mine) and a bass that has a tight B string....you might try a Lakland skyline 5501....there's a new one not overpriced....I don't know how many Euro's they cost!!

Otherwise, VanMan is correct. Your cab is possibly only part of the issue. It's really not a bad cab for the money and size. It's likely your bass that needs either some work or replacement. I was using a G&L L2000 at the time I had the 4x8 and it sounded fantastic at low to moderate volumes. That cab is not made for hi volume sub sonic bass. Also, the ELF system has special subs to handle the 25hz area. I have no idea how they do it or if they sound as good or whether the speakers wear out sooner because of how much excersion? they make? To me, VanMan, and probably others, a solid cabinet, with a low end response into the low 40's and probably 100 or more SPL rating will really make a decent bass come alive in the B string area. You just may have to be patient to be able to afford it. It doesn't have to be a bankbuster. Look out for used bargains. They come up in Europe too!!

Good luck young man. GAS at such an early time in your bass career. Such is life in the GAS lane.

L

[bgavin]

The ribbed paper surrounds are typical of high efficiency, short Xmax drivers. The opposite end are the inefficient, large Xmax drivers with the huge half-roll surrounds made of foam or neoprene.

The amount of noise made is a function of displacement. You have to move the air to make the noise. The Adire is near the very top of the displacement list and moves just over 1.5 liters. It is the next step up from my Rockfords. Mine have a slightly larger Xmax, are even less efficient, and require even more power.

My JBL E110 color the sound a great deal, but I can't tell with the subs. They are to be replaced with a pair of B102. If I run the crossover all the way up so all the signal goes to the subs, they are just dull and thuddy, as I expect them to be. I think the subs are all done by 125 Hz.

A high efficiency driver requires support from the cabinet port to create the low frequency loudness it cannot produce due to a short Xmax. The ideal (most linear) port size is identical to the driver piston area with a duct length no more than the diameter of the piston. This means a huge cabinet that is too large for portable use, but is great for a fixed installation.

The dual coil Adire is a 4 or 16 ohm driver, and is not the most efficient driver in the tool box. Then again, it dives seriously deep, has an enormous Xmax, and you pay handsomely for the power it wants to eat. If you don't need to go that low, get a different driver that is louder, but doesn't go down quite as far. The Magnum 18LF is the next step up, and is +3dB more sensitive. 4-bangers will do great with the Magnum, but the bottom feeders will want a pair of Adires.

[ESP-LTD]

Originally posted by vanselus


So after that crap, here's my question. Why do you, feel this compulsion to endlessly search for "correct" repro. of the low B? Is it just "cause you like the sound" or is there some reason you feel it works better with what you play?

After buying a new stereo recently I discovered that low bass doesn't have to be loud to be clearly heard. It doesn't have to be boomy and sloppy, if the speakers are designed to do that job accurately.

I had built plenty of cabs before so I took the plunge and made subs. I made them flat (like 1db down) to 30hz, and made sure they had adequate excursion (12.5mm) to keep the voice coil within the magnetic gap so they don't distort any more at 30hz than they do at 100hz.

There really is no "endless search" if you build them yourself. I learned enough on TB in 4 months to design them. In fact in my case, JBL gave away a free design that was pretty close to ideal for me.

Yes, I do it this way because I like the sound.

[geshel]

Originally posted by BruceWane


Basically, brute force.

They also get a little help in that, by the time you've lined up all those subs under the stage, the result is a line array large enough to help focus the sound towards the audience. For bass, it takes a lot of drivers to accomplish that, so it still falls under the "brute force" category I suppose.

[michiel soenen]

Man, you guys are so offtopic

My b-string sounds just right at lower volumes, thank you

[not78pbass]

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH!

you guys dont know nothin! the only way to properly reproduce a b string is with 10 of these bad boys and about 50,000 watts:

Deit: this is intended in jest, please refrain from rebutting as the joke iwll be on you

[ThunderStik]

Thats all im talkin about !

[bassist31588]

Originally posted by ESP-LTD
I don't think you will have much luck with subs if you expect your Hartke to drive them.

If you combine that 4x8 with a sub that'd be a killer rig. I really cant understand why people blow hartke off. The 3500 is an excellent head. Most amps graphic EQ I've seen, the low slider is a 50 hz slider, even with the Carvin r600 head. The hartke has a slider for 30hz, so saying its bad with a low B is just wrong.

Dude, add a sub, you'll love it

[bassist31588]

unless you play in these massive arenas your 3500 head is fin to push just about anything.

In my own Hartke Biased opinion

[ESP-LTD]

Originally posted by bassist31588

I really cant understand why people blow hartke off. ... The hartke has a slider for 30hz, so saying its bad with a low B is just wrong.

The Hartke is probably a very nice head, I am not saying anything bad about them at all.

All I'm suggesting is, that if you DO run subs, that you must biamp and you must have a lot of power for the subs. My rig doesn't get very loud and I'm already pushing 700w into the subs alone, not 350w.

[bassist31588]

Originally posted by ESP-LTD


The Hartke is probably a very nice head, I am not saying anything bad about them at all.

All I'm suggesting is, that if you DO run subs, that you must biamp and you must have a lot of power for the subs. My rig doesn't get very loud and I'm already pushing 700w into the subs alone, not 350w.

Ok, that's logical...

the hartke 7000 head is a biampable version of the 3500. 350 watts 'per side'. Dunno though, jes' gotta test these things out sometimes! The only sub I've ever seen that's an 18" is the 1800 cab by hartke. They reccomend using Hartke gear for hartke gear in unison; but then again that's probably just marketing. I'd like to try one out. See how the highs come out. It is in their professional series cabs, so they should be decent.

[vanselus]

Originally posted by bassist31588
The only sub I've ever seen that's an 18" is the 1800 cab by hartke.

uhh... what about the 18" offered by Eden, JBL, Mesa, Peavey, Bag End, (and a host of others) and just about every PA manufacturer...

Not to mention the new 21" Accugroove!

I mean, I understand that you're Hartke biased, but come ON now...

[boobinga]

That vibrating head really is dopey...

[bassist31588]

Originally posted by vanselus


uhh... what about the 18" offered by Eden, JBL, Mesa, Peavey, Bag End, (and a host of others) and just about every PA manufacturer...

Not to mention the new 21" Accugroove!

I mean, I understand that you're Hartke biased, but come ON now...

hehe, dude, I've heard of those 18's and heard great things bout the SWR big ben as a sub thats decent as a standalone. When I said the hartke is the only sub I've seen, I mean that literally, I've never seen an 18 "IN PERSON" other than that hartke. Lol... Im not that biased. When I purchase gear its usually from Samash or local music shoppes if I need strings or something, and knowing Samash, they practically only sell Hartke, peavey and SWR amps so that's practically about 85% of what I've seen in person. I've seen pictures of plenty of 18" subs, but I've just never plugged into one or been up to see one in person. I'm not a hic you know!

[bassist31588]

not to mention madison Speakers all-in-one cab. 2 21" subs and 2 8"s i think there may have been a horn and some other speakers, but Im not sure, so yes, I've heard of 21" speakers also! Just want to clarify that. I know about a lot of gear. I just don't play through them. I dont go into the store and just plug in unless I have the intention of making a purchase. I don't just go to a store and 'jam out' hoping someone will make a remark about how good I am, I've been through that stage when I was 12. Besides, I hate 95% of the basses a lot of stores have on stock in their shelves. 50% are decent basses and only like 5% are properly setup so I dont go in to play, I go in for strings and walk right out. I've checked out the gear I want to.

[jerry]

Jah Wobble uses 21 or 24 inch subs.....I think he has to rotate them from sagging to floor

[vanselus]

Originally posted by boobinga
That vibrating head really is dopey...

since you're in the NW you can come see it in person, you're lucky. and its not vibrating, ******, its shaking. like the feeling you get from a 21" sub

[vanselus]

Originally posted by bassist31588
When I said the hartke is the only sub I've seen, I mean that literally, I've never seen an 18 "IN PERSON" other than that hartke.

oh crap man, I totally apologize - I read that totally wrong. My bad.

i totally agree about going into a store and "jamming out" - every time i'm in bassnw there's these total freaks slapping about 4000 miles a second "clickity clackity clickity clackity" saying look everyone, I can play fast! Screw that, a couple quarter notes and i'm out...