Could my Bergie HT112 have too much punch?

[SteveC]

I have a Bergantino HT112. Overall I've liked this cab a lot. On the last few gigs, I've started to think it sounds maybe too punchy if that makes sense. I seem to miss some low end smoothness - especially for smooth jazz.

I play pop/rock gigs and smooth jazz. Many gigs are PA supported so my rig is mostly a monitor for me, but there are times where I need it to carry a small to medium room.

My head is an Eden WT-550. I like it a lot and don't want to change it. It is warm and versitile, as are my basses - 4 and 5 strings. The only piece of gear I haven't changed out (and I change a lot) over the last couple years is the Bergie.

Any 550 users here? What cab do you use. Any suggestions from anyone else? Thanks.

[12bass]

Without hearing the tone it is hard to say, but you might try using the Eden's EQ to remove a bit of the low mids with your present cabinet and see if that helps. Set the boost to +15dB and sweep around the low EQ frequency until the "punchy" frequency is most prominent. Then cut a little at that frequency, and maybe add a dash of the shelving Bass control and see if that gets you closer to the tone you are looking for.

[bassjigga]

I haven't used the 112, but I had a 322 and found it too punchy like you're saying. Not necessarily bad if that's what you want, but I was looking for a pure sound. I now use all Glockenklang gear which is as pure as it gets. The Double (2x12) would probably be a great match for your Eden head, or if you want to stick with 1x12 they've also got a great one of those!

[KJung]

Originally Posted by SteveC

I have a Bergantino HT112. Overall I've liked this cab a lot. On the last few gigs, I've started to think it sounds maybe too punchy if that makes sense. I seem to miss some low end smoothness - especially for smooth jazz.

I play pop/rock gigs and smooth jazz. Many gigs are PA supported so my rig is mostly a monitor for me, but there are times where I need it to carry a small to medium room.

My head is an Eden WT-550. I like it a lot and don't want to change it. It is warm and versitile, as are my basses - 4 and 5 strings. The only piece of gear I haven't changed out (and I change a lot) over the last couple years is the Bergie.

Any 550 users here? What cab do you use. Any suggestions from anyone else? Thanks.

That cab is probably not the best match for the type of music and sound you seem to be going for. My HT210S sounds GREAT in more traditional jazz settings. It's very warm, very mid punchy, very smooth high end, and very little low end extension... perfect for playing EB with acoustic piano, etc. The Berg112 is voiced even more extremely than this IMO.

I'm not sure how much EQ will change that inherent voicing, especially in a small cab like that. It sounds like the Epi112UL would be more suited to what you are trying to do... crisper high end, much more low end, and somewhat more volume (especiall running a single one at 8ohms... I find the Berg's like A LOT of power versus some other cabs, and the WT550 into 8ohms isn't putting out very much).

Also, if I remember correctly, aren't you in some way associated with EA. If so, a 4ohm NL210 with the WT550 would be the bomb IMO... still very lightweight, but wider low end and MUCH more volume.

All IMO as always.

K

[ctxbass]

Punch is in the fingers. Play smoothly and sound smooth.
I find the Bergantino 12s put out what I put in.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by ctxbass

Punch is in the fingers. Play smoothly and sound smooth.
I find the Bergantino 12s put out what I put in.

That's silly IMO.... playing the same way with the same bass through the same head with the same touch using different cabs results in VERY different tone, projection, low versus treble response, etc.

He's not saying the Berg sounds bad, just that it's too 'punchy'. My definition of 'punchy' is a slightly increased mid response with a somewhat compressed low end, and a smoother, less bright high end... which is EXACTLY the way I would describe my Berg... wonderful, but very specific inherent tone (like every cab), and about as far away from 'flat' as any cab I've ever played.

When you combine that with the fact that IMO he is underpowering the relatively inefficient Berg 112, which would further compress the low end, there might be a better option out there for him.

[Wilbyman]

I'm with Ken on this one, it sounds like you want a UL112.

[Dan Robbins]

yeah, the 112 is a sealed cabinet so it's not going to have that airy low bass warmth (40-120 hz or so) to the sound. Without ports, most of the bass frequencies come out of the speaker itself, and not the cabinet's (wooden box) resonance.
In a cabinet with ports, the sound has more low end response, at the expense of punchiness. Front ported usually sounds a bit punchier than rear ported. There are many other factors, but all else being equal, a front port will add the boomy room -filling low bass you're missing and be a little slower, and a rear port will add even more bass and be even a bit slower than front ported.
Try setting your sealed cab very near a wall for more bass, or even in the corner by the wall for even more bass. . . You could even try tilting it back so the top back of it touches the wall. Or, just buy an Accugroove Tri112L and bump up the bass a bit, and VIOLA the most accurate, incredible, lightweight, warm yet punchy and clear cabinet for my 36 lbs (weighed on the scale). I love Bergs, but for my money I'd take the Acc 112 anyday for accurate smooth low end.
BTW Accugrooves have front-ported 12's within their own "cabinet within a cabinet", which in my opinion allows for smooth bloomy warm bottom end, that stays controlled because the box within a box isn't too big and slow (box within a box), and the mid and high frequency drivers fill out anything that might be covered over by the front ported 12's lovely low end. Also, the woofers in Accugroove speakers see a full range signal--I can get the punch of my old Polytone 112 with some real bottom end and crisp top end added...Heaven. I think the full range signal to the woofer is crucial to the sound of the Accugroove. It helps retain a bit of the "old school" sound (the "steroids" part), plus added fidelity.
I've owned EA CXL112 (old version), VL208, VL110's, VL210's, Aguilar 112, Berg HT322, Eden 2x10, Carvin, Polytone, etc. All very different cabs; IMHO I believe that Accugroove have hit an amazing compromise with their "cabinet within a cabinet", front ported, three way designs. I tend to bump up the bass a bit on my Walter Woods head through the Tri112L but I have never played better bass (acoustic and electric) than through these. Everything is easier, less fatigue, the cabinets sing!!! (I bough a second Tri112 two days later!!! Sold four other cabs within a week. I'm set for awhile now)
Didn't mean to start preaching Accugroove, I am just more excited than I have even been about playing, and it is because of Accugroove Tri112L. I call my pair the "Stackugroove"

BTW You can hear them tonight, Thursday May 11, at about 9:30 or 10pm at Moe's Alley in Santa Cruz, CA. I am playing with my funk/fusion trio Wasabi, no opener, 8 bucks at the door I think. Hell, you can try em out after the show if you want.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Dan Robbins

yeah, the 112 is a sealed cabinet so it's not going to have that airy low bass warmth (40-120 hz or so) to the sound. Without ports, most of the bass frequencies come out of the speaker itself, and not the cabinet's (wooden box) resonance.
In a cabinet with ports, the sound has more low end response, at the expense of punchiness. Front ported usually sounds a bit punchier than rear ported. There are many other factors, but all else being equal, a front port will add the boomy room -filling low bass you're missing and be a little slower, and a rear port will add even more bass and be even a bit slower than front ported.
Try setting your sealed cab very near a wall for more bass, or even in the corner by the wall for even more bass. . . You could even try tilting it back so the top back of it touches the wall. Or, just buy an Accugroove Tri112L and bump up the bass a bit, and VIOLA the most accurate, incredible, lightweight, warm yet punchy and clear cabinet for my 36 lbs (weighed on the scale). I love Bergs, but for my money I'd take the Acc 112 anyday for accurate smooth low end.
BTW Accugrooves have front-ported 12's within their own "cabinet within a cabinet", which in my opinion allows for smooth bloomy warm bottom end, that stays controlled because the box within a box isn't too big and slow (box within a box), and the mid and high frequency drivers fill out anything that might be covered over by the front ported 12's lovely low end. Also, the woofers in Accugroove speakers see a full range signal--I can get the punch of my old Polytone 112 with some real bottom end and crisp top end added...Heaven. I think the full range signal to the woofer is crucial to the sound of the Accugroove. It helps retain a bit of the "old school" sound (the "steroids" part), plus added fidelity.
I've owned EA CXL112 (old version), VL208, VL110's, VL210's, Aguilar 112, Berg HT322, Eden 2x10, Carvin, Polytone, etc. All very different cabs; IMHO I believe that Accugroove have hit an amazing compromise with their "cabinet within a cabinet", front ported, three way designs. I tend to bump up the bass a bit on my Walter Woods head through the Tri112L but I have never played better bass (acoustic and electric) than through these. Everything is easier, less fatigue, the cabinets sing!!! (I bough a second Tri112 two days later!!! Sold four other cabs within a week. I'm set for awhile now)
Didn't mean to start preaching Accugroove, I am just more excited than I have even been about playing, and it is because of Accugroove Tri112L. I call my pair the "Stackugroove"

BTW You can hear them tonight, Thursday May 11, at about 9:30 or 10pm at Moe's Alley in Santa Cruz, CA. I am playing with my funk/fusion trio Wasabi, no opener, 8 bucks at the door I think. Hell, you can try em out after the show if you want.

I'm pretty sure the HT112 is ported

[Dan Robbins]

Yeah, I think you're right ! just looked at the website. Oh well, there are some other factors--every cabinet maker has their own idea of what is the perfect compromise of warmth and punch. Perhaps if the box was a little bigger, rear ported, and with a different, less "low-mid peaky" driver it would sound deeper. Now we're talking a different manufacturer. Oh well! Hopefully my port observations will be useful to somebody anyway--

[ctxbass]

Originally Posted by KJung

That's silly IMO.... playing the same way with the same bass through the same head with the same touch using different cabs results in VERY different tone, projection, low versus treble response, etc.

He's not saying the Berg sounds bad, just that it's too 'punchy'. My definition of 'punchy' is a slightly increased mid response with a somewhat compressed low end, and a smoother, less bright high end... which is EXACTLY the way I would describe my Berg... wonderful, but very specific inherent tone (like every cab), and about as far away from 'flat' as any cab I've ever played.

When you combine that with the fact that IMO he is underpowering the relatively inefficient Berg 112, which would further compress the low end, there might be a better option out there for him.

Okay. My definition of punchy has to do with attack and not specific frequency response. Obviously, different cabinets will sound different. And I do agree that 300 watts is not enough for his Berg box.

[Wilbyman]

Originally Posted by KJung

I'm pretty sure the HT112 is ported

The old version I have is sealed, but I do recall seeing a small triangular port on the new ones....

W

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Dan Robbins

Yeah, I think you're right ! just looked at the website. Oh well, there are some other factors--every cabinet maker has their own idea of what is the perfect compromise of warmth and punch. Perhaps if the box was a little bigger, rear ported, and with a different, less "low-mid peaky" driver it would sound deeper. Now we're talking a different manufacturer. Oh well! Hopefully my port observations will be useful to somebody anyway--

+1 I think the point is, every cab is voiced in some way, and what works great for some might not be the best for others. When you combine the fact that different basses and amps interact very differently with one cab versus the other, it gets very confusing.

The good news is, it gives all of us compulsive gear heads something to talk about over and over again, day after day

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Wilbyman

The old version I have is sealed, but I do recall seeing a small triangular port on the new ones....

W

I've never played one of the older ones. I forgot that he did make a sealed version at one point. So.... Dan Robbins... we are both right!

[tombowlus]

Originally Posted by Wilbyman

The old version I have is sealed, but I do recall seeing a small triangular port on the new ones....

W

Are you sure of this? If your cab is not ported, then it is not a production model. I think Jim might have considered this idea in the past, but according to him, he never made a sealed HT112.

To my ears, the HT112 is more balanced than the Epifani T-112 or UL-112. The HT112 does have a bit of a low mid presence, but on the whole, it's pretty balanced. The Epi 1x12's have tremendous low end, and open and airy (but rather detached) highs, and somewhat scooped mids. So, I guess the HT112 is more punchy than an UL-112, but is it "too punchy"? I guess that's in the ear of the beholder.

Tom.

[tombowlus]

Originally Posted by KJung

He's not saying the Berg sounds bad, just that it's too 'punchy'. My definition of 'punchy' is a slightly increased mid response with a somewhat compressed low end, and a smoother, less bright high end... which is EXACTLY the way I would describe my Berg... wonderful, but very specific inherent tone (like every cab), and about as far away from 'flat' as any cab I've ever played.

Are you sure about that, Ken? I have personally heard you play through many cabs that are much further away from "flat" than is the HT210S. That said, I do not consider the HT210S to be an entirely "flat" sounding cab, but it's much more tonally balanced sounding cab than many other cabs.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by tombowlus

Are you sure about that, Ken? I have personally heard you play through many cabs that are much further away from "flat" than is the HT210S. That said, I do not consider the HT210S to be an entirely "flat" sounding cab, but it's much more tonally balanced sounding cab than many other cabs.

It sounds like a Berg... other cabs sound like they sound. I don't hear anything remotely 'flat' in the small Berg cab sound. There is definitely a roll-off of the upper treble, and definitely a roll-off of the lower bass, and definately an increased response in the midrange. All the Berg cabs I've played have a very strong, signature 'Berg' sound... which I like in some situations and not in others. To me, they add as much 'Berg' sound as Epifani adds 'Epi' sound, etc.

All cabs can be 'tonally balanced' to me, if the 'tonal balance' they achieve sounds good to your ear . That's different to me from 'flat'. I actually find the Berg's somewhat less tonally balanced than quite a few other cabs, because I miss some of the high highs and low lows in the smaller cabs (which is what we are talking about on this thread). On the other hand, that's why I use my HT210S in the situations I do... soft, more acoustic oriented gigs where the last thing you want is deep bass and sizzling treble!

I agree that the DSP in the IP's make the Berg's more tonally balanced and flat... but they STILL sound like Berg's!

[Eric Cioe]

Steve,

You could just rectify this problem by no longer playing smooth jazz.

Eric

[KJung]

Originally Posted by tombowlus

So, I guess the HT112 is more punchy than an UL-112, but is it "too punchy"? I guess that's in the ear of the beholder.Tom.

I think that's the point of this thread The thread originator was describing his HT112 as possibly 'too punchy', so we are trying to give him some input (not attack nor defend the Bergantino cabs). When I hear someone say the small Berg's are 'too punchy', while I don't necessarily agree, I totally understand what they are saying based on what I hear in those cabs. It has nothing to do with 'good or bad', but the very unique Berg voicing can be a positive or a negative, depending on the sound you are looking for.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Eric Cioe

Steve,

You could just rectify this problem by no longer playing smooth jazz.

Eric

Ha!!!! That's one solution Good one!