The "Cranked Tube Amps" dilemma

Coaxx · #1 11-07-2010, 01:31 PM

Hey guys,

I'm really into cranked tube amps, but I'm facing a problem many of you probably know about: How the **** can I get that tone when I have to play a little bit more quiet, for example at a jam session?

I recently read about low wattage tube amps (like 5 watts), which run into a dummyload followed by a solid state power amp. This is supposed to give you all the dirt and overdrive of an all tube amp, while the power amp can give you that tone at the appropriate volume.

Are there any downsides I am missing? If it really sounds like a cranked tube monster, this would also be a LOT lighter (I'd guess a modern class D power amps+small tube amp would weight about 15 pounds!).

Has anybody played through such a setup? Does it really give you the "cranked tube amp feeling"? Are there any low wattage tube amps that are suitable for bass?

JimmyM · #2 11-07-2010, 01:38 PM

ampeg b-15n, ashdown litle bastard. never played through such a setup as you describe, but i have a b-15n and it's exactly what you're looking for.

Dub56 · #3 11-07-2010, 01:41 PM

I can do that on my Mesa M-Pulse 600, I just turn the master volume down and the gain up. Definitely suitable for a jam or practicing. Not to mention the amp has plenty of power to gig with.

BassmanPaul · #4 11-07-2010, 01:44 PM

It's a fairly simple thing to do. It won't give you the exact tone as the amps speakers don't come into the equation.

Deluge Of Sound · #5 11-07-2010, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dub56

I can do that on my Mesa M-Pulse 600, I just turn the master volume down and the gain up. Definitely suitable for a jam or practicing. Not to mention the amp has plenty of power to gig with.

I mean, I could explain to you all the problems with this post, but I'll just facepalm quietly to myself instead.

OP, have you tried a hot plate, or another attenuator?

Selta · #6 11-07-2010, 01:50 PM

I guess some people don't understand the difference between preamp saturation and power section saturation...
IMO/IME, nothing will replicate the sound of say, a dimed out SVT. Come close, sure.
OPs basically asking a question a lot of people have been asking for a long time. I think JimmyM's response is about as close as you'll get.

Deluge Of Sound · #7 11-07-2010, 01:52 PM

You could also try the Orange Tiny Terror (not the bass terror) and the Epi Valve Jr.

animal52 · #8 11-07-2010, 02:07 PM

Is there a reason that bass player's don't use attenuator's? Guitarists do this all the time.

JimmyM · #9 11-07-2010, 02:16 PM

probably because most bass players aren't looking for power tube grind. that and the vast majority of them won't work with a 300w tube amp. plus it's not really good for your amps. they work, but tube life and overheating are issues.

dokazaado · #10 11-07-2010, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Salamon

I guess some people don't understand the difference between preamp saturation and power section saturation...
IMO/IME, nothing will replicate the sound of say, a dimed out SVT. Come close, sure.
OPs basically asking a question a lot of people have been asking for a long time. I think JimmyM's response is about as close as you'll get.

this.

if you're using a 300 watt amp, try a good 100 watt amp,
maybe an Ampeg v4 or something like that.
if you're using less, maybe look into getting one of the rad 18-watt Marshall clones that have been the rage for guitar players lately.
But I've found that the sound I like requires the power tubes getting good and warm.

animal52 · #11 11-07-2010, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyM

probably because most bass players aren't looking for power tube grind. that and the vast majority of them won't work with a 300w tube amp. plus it's not really good for your amps. they work, but tube life and overheating are issues.

Good to know! Thanks Jimmy.

rodl2005 · #12 11-07-2010, 03:20 PM

what amp are U using at the moment to give U THE sound??? That'd help us-

but the obvious answers are as Jimmy said- B15, Ashdown Li'l Bastard, both are 30 or so watts- crank them & U got it.

Or as dokazaado ??? says- try a V4/B/BH (100w) if U use a 300 watter

The VT bass pedal by Tech 21 does a darn good simulation of an SVT etc cranked too- but... aint CTUAL toobes

brianrost · #13 11-07-2010, 03:33 PM

I have a (long discontinued) Hughes and Kettner Blues Master. 5W, all tube, Fender style tone stack. They turn up used now and then. I bought it for recording (has a dummy load, spkr emulator and line out) but also a speaker jack. Run it through a 1-15" for some crazy grind! Before that I had the H&K Cream Machine which was only 1W (!!!) and no tone controls, otherwise the same. H&K also made a thing called the B.A.T.T. for bass, 5W, tone switches (bright, deep, etc.) but no knob EQ. The Crunch Master is the same as the Blues Master, I think for the Euro market?

The (also discontinued) SWR Interstellar Overdrive is similar in concept, never tried one.

The suggestion for a B-15 is a good one.

rllefebv · #14 11-07-2010, 05:33 PM

Don't laugh, but a Fender Musicmaster into a 1X15 cab can crank and sound pretty convincing... 12 watts of tubey goodness... Now, we all know that the 'stock' combo is a phenomenal guitar or harp amp (far better than it is a bass amp), but the head into a nice cab sounds yummy...

-robert

**Jeremy Allen** · #15 11-07-2010, 05:39 PM

I found an old Sunn Sonaro w/1x15" cab. 40 watts. Not too expensive. Exactly what you're talking about!

throbbinnut · #16 11-07-2010, 06:00 PM

The ideal way to do what you want is to have different sized tube setups for different volume levels. Then you can run them at the volume level where they really sound good. I have a Kay 720 1x15 20 Watt combo for quiet work, a 70W 1x15 cab and head for medium, and a 100W V4B head that I can pair with a normal Ampeg 2x15 for large, or use with the old V4B folded horn 2x15 if I'm feeling insane. I've got a Peavey 200W head, but I don't even know what to use it with, since it has to see 2 ohms to go full 200W.

Chris

ninepoundjammer · #17 11-07-2010, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianrost

I have a (long discontinued) Hughes and Kettner Blues Master. 5W, all tube, Fender style tone stack. They turn up used now and then. I bought it for recording (has a dummy load, spkr emulator and line out) but also a speaker jack. Run it through a 1-15" for some crazy grind! Before that I had the H&K Cream Machine which was only 1W (!!!) and no tone controls, otherwise the same. H&K also made a thing called the B.A.T.T. for bass, 5W, tone switches (bright, deep, etc.) but no knob EQ. The Crunch Master is the same as the Blues Master, I think for the Euro market?

The (also discontinued) SWR Interstellar Overdrive is similar in concept, never tried one.

The suggestion for a B-15 is a good one.

Guys, I believe this is the sort of thing that the OP is asking about. My understanding is that these are actual small tube amps, not just preamps, with a dummy load and a line level output suitable for amplification with a SS amplifier. So, one might reasonably expect it to have that power tube saturation/compression that we all desire. On the other hand, I'm just starting to try to understand tube amps, so maybe there's really not much difference between a small power amp and a beefy tube preamp. Either way, that's the question both the OP and I would like to know the answer to. And, if you can explain why, even better.

Deluge Of Sound · #18 11-07-2010, 07:11 PM

There's a big difference between power tube saturation and preamp tube saturation. That said, I've gotta fall back on the Townsend model when it comes to describing it--dancing about architecture.

On the other hand, 'til we know what the OP's using, its difficult to tell if he really wants the sound of overdriven power tubes, or if he just thinks he does. A red-hot tube amp sounds a whole lot different than you might expect if you haven't played one (At least, that was my experience the first time I cranked an all-tube rig).

R. Laevinus · #19 11-07-2010, 07:46 PM

...have you considered the use of a small cab? I think we're all clear on the fact that the more speakers you have, the more volume you have, for the same wattage.

So maybe pick up a 1x10 or 1x12 cab to use for low-volume situations. It'd probably be a couple hundred cheaper than buying a second, low-wattage tube amp, and has the advantage that it can be added to a modular rig.

seamonkey · #20 11-07-2010, 08:16 PM

Reactive dummy load
http://www.duncanamps.com/technical/dummyload.html
Hang this off a lower power amp to simulate the impedance curve of a speaker in a sealed cabinet.

Then just add a DI off this, like you would off the speaker.
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/DI100.aspx

The small amps have a different output section, class-a, versus class-ab of a 25W or more amp.

Modelers can do either type, at any level just fine.