in defense of the not-so-liked BP102 speaker

[eastcoasteddie]

There's been much talk about how these speakers absolutely SUCK in a full range application.

I happen to have 2 cabs loaded with them; a Goliath II 4x10 and a Goliath II Jr. 2x10.

I usually use these cabs with my SVT 2-pro, but as of late, that rig has been in the garage and I've been using a pair of 1x12's with a BX500 at home...these take a lot less space.

I decided to try the 2x10 on it's side with the BX500 because that is even smaller than the 12" mini-stack

I had the amp eq'ed exactly like I do with the 12's, and yes, the 2x10 sounded very lack-luster. lots of muffled low-end. I tried working with the eq from where it was at, but never got to a good place.

I then decided to order a pair of Deltalite 2510's for this cab and set the BP's aside for something else in the future.

Today, I decided to start from scratch with the EQ still using the BP's (2510's didn't arrive yet). I set everything flat and went form there.

This is where I ended up with the EQ


and this is how it sounds:

fingerstyle (yes, I hit those strings hard...make them f**kers growl!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jRYnWL3M3E

and slap:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUanWf21Ets

Bass is my Dean "Jazzhammer" 5, onboard eq is set flat in both videos. I move between each pickup, but don't go into splitting the humbucker.

Horn pad on the cabinet is set to about -8dB, stock 4kHz crossover.



I believe, you CAN get a good full range sound out of these speakers if you EQ them right....I'm wondering if I jumped the gun on the 2510's...

[BurningSkies]

They're not awful speakers, if that's what you took away from the discussion earlier today. They're just not terribly 'developed' much above the low mids. Your EQ shows that. You've got one of your parametrics boosted what looks like 1.5 or 2 db, you have your treble boosted 6db. Your Graphic EQ also shows a lot of boost. They don't tell you how much, and the manual doesn't list what the GEQ will do, but most of the 'high end looks like you're 3 to 6 or more DB of gain.

The BP102 isn't terribly flat, it doesn't reach very high, and it isn't very loud.

I had 4 of them loaded in a 4x10 once. It sounded good for fingerstyle reggae and 'traditional' rolled off tone.

[rpsands]

BP102's are fantastic speakers, but there's no neo version of them, so I could not possibly care less about them.

If they had a neo version I would jump on them like crazy and have a vertical 4x10 with a horn. They can really rock the socks with enough space.

At 9lbs per speaker though, it's just not workin. Not when Deltalites can come pretty close to the lows and get MUCH louder at 4.6lbs.

[eastcoasteddie]

Originally Posted by BurningSkies

They're not awful speakers, if that's what you took away from the discussion earlier today. They're just not terribly 'developed' much above the low mids. Your EQ shows that. You've got one of your parametrics boosted what looks like 1.5 or 2 db, you have your treble boosted 6db. Your Graphic EQ also shows a lot of boost. They don't tell you how much, and the manual doesn't list what the GEQ will do, but most of the 'high end looks like you're 3 to 6 or more DB of gain.

The BP102 isn't terribly flat, it doesn't reach very high, and it isn't very loud.

I had 4 of them loaded in a 4x10 once. It sounded good for fingerstyle reggae and 'traditional' rolled off tone.

It isn't that I got the idea from the earlier discussion, I've been reading on this forum for the past year that the suck, and maybe only a fistful of nutcases love them...they are quickly shot down by the masses.

Yes, the eq shows boost, but not a lot. There still is a lot more to go before it's maxed. But that's what an EQ is for...tone shaping.

Also, some of the low-mids I exaggerated...I like everything in the house to rattle...
It would still sound fine with the low-mid boosted less in the parametric eq, but that isn't where these speakers have a problem.

What I'm trying to say is that, they don't necessarily suck in a full range application unless you like to run your amp flat all the time. But if you do that, why not just get an amp with a single volume knob.

I do disagree that the speakers are not loud. I recorded those videos with the volume where it is in the photo, on 1. I played about a half hour before that with the volume on 2. My head felt like I just left a concert.
They do sound better when they are pushed, though; the louder the better.

[BurningSkies]

A quick look at the eminence spec sheet shows the driver has an sensitivity of 92db. The low end roll off starts in earnest at what looks to be about 150hz. It has a scoop that starts at about 250 and fills out with an Everest around 1Khz...then falls STEEPLY at just over 1.5khz. They say the "usable freq. response" is 40Hz -2kHz, but at 40Hz, you're down to about 72 db or so...

You've got an Xmax of 6.2mm (not awful) and an Xlim of 10.0mm. Power rating of 200/400w.

Again, its a bread and butter old school speaker, just not really up to fighting some of the newer more advanced speakers we were discussing in the fEarful threads.

[rpsands]

BS, that's not a measurement in a cabinet. Put it in a box and the BP102 is awesome. Compare its graph to the 3015LF in free air =P

In a 2 cubic foot box tuned to 35hz, the BP102's -3db point is 41hz -- significantly better than the 3015LF in the fEarful box, and -10db @ 27hz, again significantly better than the 3015LF.

Obviously it can't take the poudning a 3012LF can -- displacement limited to something like 75 watts per driver -- 150 or so for real bass use.

A pair of them is a damned good match to a 3012LF though, and significantly cheaper. If they had neos, they would sell like hotcakes, I guarantee it

They have a 4 ohm model too. Stick four of those in a vertical box with neo magnets and put a nice 2khz or so horn on them, and you'd have a sick box -- a real 100db sensitivity with around 600 watts of power handling and extension down to the low B.

[Craig_S]

Count me as one of the fistfull of nutcases who like them. I had them loaded in my LDS 410, and that cab was a BEAST.

[BurningSkies]

Originally Posted by rpsands

BS, that's not a measurement in a cabinet. Put it in a box and the BP102 is awesome. Compare its graph to the 3015LF in free air =P

In a 2 cubic foot box tuned to 35hz, the BP102's -3db point is 41hz -- significantly better than the 3015LF in the fEarful box, and -10db @ 27hz, again significantly better than the 3015LF.

Obviously it can't take the poudning a 3012LF can -- displacement limited to something like 75 watts per driver -- 150 or so for real bass use.

A pair of them is a damned good match to a 3012LF though, and significantly cheaper. If they had neos, they would sell like hotcakes, I guarantee it

They have a 4 ohm model too. Stick four of those in a vertical box with neo magnets and put a nice 2khz or so horn on them, and you'd have a sick box -- a real 100db sensitivity with around 600 watts of power handling and extension down to the low B.

I actually had 4 of these in a 4x10 back before I did my box swapping, so I know that in a well designed box they're decent at providing solid lows. I used them for a year or two. And I don't have any real complaint about the lows, but they're not a full range speaker as the OP is suggesting. Nor again, are they any match for either of the two main fEarful designs as we were speaking of earlier. I still think that if you want a 'full range' 2 or 3 way 2x10 cab, there are others out there that would fit the bill...A quick look at the neo speakers that US Speaker has on tap shows a pile of speakers that would be effective if it was worth it beyond the curiosity of trying it.

[eastcoasteddie]

Originally Posted by BurningSkies

...but they're not a full range speaker as the OP is suggesting...

I'm just saying that they CAN be used in a full range-like box with proper EQ-ing...they're far from perfect, but aren't a lost case, either.

The Goliath II 4x10 I have these in requires less EQ to get good tone. Those are also the 4-ohm models in that cab.

[Craig_S]

Originally Posted by eastcoasteddie

The Goliath II 4x10 I have these in requires less EQ to get good tone.

I ran my rig flat (according to the knobs), with the BP102 loaded 410 cab. My amp is a Markbass SA450.

[billfitzmaurice]

I agree that the BP102 will work fine with the right EQ. But if you don't have at least a 5 band EQ section you may not find it to your liking. And if you're one of those who thinks that anything lower than 11:00 and higher than 1:00 is beyond the pale it's probably not for you.

[eastcoasteddie]

I've been thinking, and perhaps when I get the Deltalite II's, I'll try them in this 2x10, and then together with the 4x10 loaded with BP's. With the much less (or no) high-mid and treble eq boost that the 2510's need, the 2x10 will take care of all that and the 4x10 will act as a sub...without doing any bi-amping...might be interesting.

[rpsands]

Originally Posted by BurningSkies

And I don't have any real complaint about the lows, but they're not a full range speaker as the OP is suggesting. Nor again, are they any match for either of the two main fEarful designs as we were speaking of earlier.

Two BP102s is pretty close to a match for a 3012LF - but does need a little more space. Maybe 3 1/4 cubic feet or so.

Probably louder than a 3012LF with limited wattage on tap too, due to the 4 ohm increase.

[Sundogue]

I've owned two DIY 210/6 cabs, and now am building two 110/6 cabs using the BP102's. I'll have two little 110/6 cabs weighing roughly 25 lbs. each (not quite done with them yet) that are an easy one handle carry that still bring a significant "wump" in the lo-mid/upper bass (given they are each in a 1.5 cu.ft. cab).

I love them when they are matched with a dedicated mid range driver. LOVE THEM! I like that they are a small form factor (10's) giving me small cabs that still bring some pretty decent low end.

And as rpsands alluded to (though not outright saying), if they made these in neo I would buy them ALL and rule the world!!!

[eastcoasteddie]

Originally Posted by Sundogue

I've owned two DIY 210/6 cabs, and now am building two 110/6 cabs using the BP102's. I'll have two little 110/6 cabs weighing roughly 25 lbs. each (not quite done with them yet) that are an easy one handle carry that still bring a significant "wump" in the lo-mid/upper bass (given they are each in a 1.5 cu.ft. cab).

I love them when they are matched with a dedicated mid range driver. LOVE THEM! I like that they are a small form factor (10's) giving me small cabs that still bring some pretty decent low end.

And as rpsands alluded to (though not outright saying), if they made these in neo I would buy them ALL and rule the world!!!

I'm very interested in your 2x10/6 cabs...I posted in your thread about them a few days ago. If the 2510's work for me in the above mentioned combination, I may set these two BP's aside for a build like that in the future. But I have some questions about crossover networks for the 6....I have some searching to do, I suppose.

[Sundogue]

Originally Posted by eastcoasteddie

I'm very interested in your 2x10/6 cabs...I posted in your thread about them a few days ago. If the 2510's work for me in the above mentioned combination, I may set these two BP's aside for a build like that in the future. But I have some questions about crossover networks for the 6....I have some searching to do, I suppose.

I use the active crossover in my BX1200. I can set both the x-over point and the individual output of both lows and mids. I'm not sure what the ideal crossover point would be as it sounds pretty good crossing over anywhere from 500Hz to 800Hz. I have no hard data on that other than what sounds best to me as there is no internal crossover in the cabs.

Others who are crossover experts would know better than me. If you use an active external crossover you can experiment with it.

[dhsierra1]

re Eastcoasteddie, I posted likewise, but looking more at Sundogue's 1X10/6 + 1X10 as mentioned here as well. Same needs/applications/sound as SD is looking to get outta his. Just looking for recommendation on a neo instead of the BP102s. Have done the modelling etc on a host of neo 10s (will use the Alpha 6) as I need the cabs smaller and overall a little lighter (small car to transport gear is the issue, so divide and conquer). Just looking for a little input from experienced ears as I've not worked w/a driver in a DIY build since an EVM-15B II and things have changed.... Thanks.

[Sundogue]

Originally Posted by dhsierra1

re Eastcoasteddie, I posted likewise, but looking more at Sundogue's 1X10/6 + 1X10 as mentioned here as well. Same needs/applications/sound as SD is looking to get outta his. Just looking for recommendation on a neo instead of the BP102s. Have done the modelling etc on a host of neo 10s (will use the Alpha 6) as I need the cabs smaller and overall a little lighter (small car to transport gear is the issue, so divide and conquer). Just looking for a little input from experienced ears as I've not worked w/a driver in a DIY build since an EVM-15B II and things have changed.... Thanks.

Well, my 110/6 cabs are going to come in at about 25 lbs. (including the 10 lb. BP102) each. They are just little (20X12X14) boxes that only have one single handle (on the BP102 end).

Any 10" neo is, at best, only going to save me 5 lbs. off an already light and easily manageable cab. To get what I'm getting using BP102's I figure that little bit of weight is worth it. It's not like I'm dealing with a 20 lb. speaker in a huge 3/4" thick box.

Yeah a neo with maybe a 1/4" ply build (I opted for 1/2" after all) would certainly give you a featherlight cab, but I figure even with the need for me to go lightweight, if I can't carry a 25 lb. cab any distance I probably should stop playing altogether.

[johnk_10]

i tried four BP102's in my two Hartke transporter cabs. they sounded good (especially for the low end), but for me they lacked the highs & clarity that i'm used to having. i replaced them two days later with 2510's and the cabs really opened up, so it's not just the weight for me, since i prefer the tone of the 2510's. the weight saving was just a bonus.

[Growly Lytes]

I like the tone im getting out of them (i may be or am nuts) but BP`s are beasts.
They have a creamy tone through the Sansamps but can give you a nice piano like tone also.Having the Mid-Shift on the RPM & the Presence of the RBI helps for use in full range.To get them really pumping i crank the blend knobs.They arent perfect but they can be used full range i do it all the time gigging & people like the sound & at times the room i play has so much bass pumping that i have to turn down.
I love`em.......call me nuts.
Next a wanna build an 8x10 cab with BP`s.Making it a little bigger then my 4x10`s & using chambers tuned @ 41hz.