DeltaLite or KappaLite???? Calling Speaker experts

MikeBass · #1 05-19-2010, 07:36 AM

If this belongs in another forum, please mods, move it!

Anyway, picked up a Hartke Pro2200 and was going to do the DeltaLite NEO conversion that Vic did to his (ended up sounding stinkin' AWESOME).
Anyway, he loaded it with DeltaLites.
While checking out the Parts Express site, I noticed Kappalite 3012LF Neo 12" which are like 450 watts.
Vic used the Deltalite II 2512 Neo 12" which is 250 watts.

I like the idea of the higher power rating and taking the cab to a 900 watt cab. Not saying that the 500 watts would be bad, but almost double wouldn't suck!

Now to be clear, it was a complete shot in the dark with Vic. He just got the speakers and dropped them in. Didn't change a thing about the cab.

So, wondering if the KappLite/DeltaLite are pretty close spec wise and if I could reasonably expect the same results as from the DeltaLite if I went KappaLite.

Confused?
Sorry!

Again, without a ton of tech-talk can a reasonable assumption be made Delta/kappa?

Thanks!

Oh yeah, I have ZERO idea what the spec are on the stock speakers or even the specs on the cab.
Like I said, Vic rolled the dice and he won big time.
So if it gets too confusing, I'm gonna go DeltaLite like he did.

KJung · #2 05-19-2010, 07:45 AM

Hey Mike,

You would not want to use the 'LF" version.. that is a kind of subwoofer speaker, and really needs a crossover and mid driver. The upper mids roll off. Those LF drivers are amazing, and are what all the 12/6 and 15/6 cabs everyone is raving about are based on.

So, if you go with the Kappa, you want the 3012 'non LF' Haven't heard that one, but the 3015 non LF (I think they call it the HO... for High Output) is killer stand-alone speaker. I assume the 3012HO is also... bright and grindy up top, plenty low end.

MikeBass · #3 05-19-2010, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KJung

Hey Mike,

You would not want to use the 'LF" version.. that is a kind of subwoofer speaker, and really needs a crossover and mid driver. The upper mids roll off. Those LF drivers are amazing, and are what all the 12/6 and 15/6 cabs everyone is raving about are based on.

So, if you go with the Kappa, you want the 3012 'non LF' Haven't heard that one, but the 3015 non LF (I think they call it the HO... for High Output) is killer stand-alone speaker. I assume the 3012HO is also... bright and grindy up top, plenty low end.

Yeah, my bad.
Thanks Ken!
The HO KappaLite!

iualum · #4 05-19-2010, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KJung

Hey Mike,

You would not want to use the 'LF" version.. that is a kind of subwoofer speaker, and really needs a crossover and mid driver. The upper mids roll off. Those LF drivers are amazing, and are what all the 12/6 and 15/6 cabs everyone is raving about are based on.

So, if you go with the Kappa, you want the 3012 'non LF' Haven't heard that one, but the 3015 non LF (I think they call it the HO... for High Output) is killer stand-alone speaker. I assume the 3012HO is also... bright and grindy up top, plenty low end.

Is this the 15" you're talking about? I see they call the 12" HO, but not the 15" (although it certainly is). http://eminence.com/proaudio_speaker...5&SUB_CAT_ID=3

I guess that you've played or heard a 115 or 215 cab using only this driver (no mid/tweet/horn). It goes to 4kHz, pretty darned good for a 15". Doesn't seem to really be lacking too much in top midrange?

KJung · #5 05-19-2010, 08:58 AM

That's the one... fabulous speaker. Here's a clip of the 3015 (non LF) in a small, one way box, powered by my Markbass F500 and using my Sadowsky. Grindy, but still full and fat:

I assume the 3012 non LF would have similar tonal characteristics, but have not heard a cab with the non-LF version.

http://www.icompositions.com/music/song.php?sid=121137

rpsands · #6 05-19-2010, 10:26 AM

The 3012HO is VERY VERY flat down low, with a very smooth rolloff. Be prepared for that.

The deltalites in a smaller cab will get a little more upper bass action going on that 3012HOs, so will sound much fatter generally, without eq. However, deltalites can't take much more than about half the LF content that the kappalite can, so you can eq a lot more in.

IMHO, for a 2x12, the 3012HO is not worth it unless you're using more than 300 watts or so on a consistent basis. The sensitivity difference is negligible, the main thing is power handling.

Mainly it depends on what you're using for an amp and how loud you get.

MikeBass · #7 05-19-2010, 11:11 AM

I use a Genz Benz Shuttle 9.0.
I seriously doubt this thing will ever see a stage. It's more than likely just going to sit at our rehearsal space so I don't have to move my cabs all the time.
And yes, we do play kinda loud at times.

This is more a little "project" as Vic did. It actually sounds pretty darn good to be honest. I was pleasantly surprised considering that I would bet not a ton of engineering went into it. Or maybe there was.
But for an off shore built box with some kinda crappy speakers, it sounds shockingly good!
I could only imagine what one would sound like if one of the "experts" here took this design and made it "really" work.
Sorta what Schroader did with the TechLine cabs that were out in the late 80's/early 90's.
Took that design and just expanded on it.

The concept of this cab is so damn logical.
Just aim the top half up to your ears where you hear things. WHAT A CONCEPT!!!!!

Again, this is more of project than anything else. I'm sure I'll be modding it further as time goes on. Just see how far I can take this thing!

rpsands · #8 05-19-2010, 11:13 AM

The 9.0 can put out so much juice at 4 ohms I'd definitely consider the Kappalites. It's a lot of bucks though.

Be sure to measure your driver cutouts first.

Thundar · #9 05-19-2010, 11:24 AM

I have a Hartke VX215 cab that I am thinking about putting new 15's in as well, but can't decide whether to use the Deltalites or the Basslites? It doesn't sound bad with the Hartke paper drivers right now, but I think it could be so much more with the right 15's in it (gonna replace that nasty tweeter in it too). I love the size and the weight of the Hartke cab and thats really the only reason I wanna hang on to it. Whadda ya think?

5StringPocket · #10 05-19-2010, 11:25 AM

Is the Kappalite 3012HO what Alex uses in the new Barefaced Super Twelve cab?
The high sensitivity of those drivers with the power and warmth of a Shuttle 9.0 would really slam.
http://barefacedbass.com/index.php?page=super-twelve

KJung · #11 05-19-2010, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5StringPocket

Is the Kappalite 3012HO what Alex uses in the new Barefaced Super Twelve cab?
http://barefacedbass.com/index.php?page=super-twelve

If it doesn't have a mid driver, my guess would be yes.

Don Oatman of Low Down Sound does the same thing... the 3012HO and 3015HO speakers in his one way or two way with horn/tweeter cabs, and the 3012LF and 3015LF in his two or three way cabs with mid drivers, typically crossed over around 800hz.

johnnycat42 · #12 05-19-2010, 11:34 AM

Not to hijack this thread but I have a 4 Ohm Avatar SB112 I recently got. It has the Eminence 500 watt 12" speaker. I really love the tone and cab but need the flexibility of having an 8 Ohm speaker to mix and match it with my setup. Anyone have a recommendation for a replacement speaker? I would love to just trade it straight up with someone but that seems unlikely so I am now shopping for a replacement speaker. Would the same recommendations already mentioned apply?

rpsands · #13 05-19-2010, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thundar

I have a Hartke VX215 cab that I am thinking about putting new 15's in as well, but can't decide whether to use the Deltalites or the Basslites? It doesn't sound bad with the Hartke paper drivers right now, but I think it could be so much more with the right 15's in it (gonna replace that nasty tweeter in it too). I love the size and the weight of the Hartke cab and thats really the only reason I wanna hang on to it. Whadda ya think?

Kappalites. Basslites only come in 4 ohms and kappalite 3015s are like 20 dollars more expensive than Deltalites for a huge performance edge. http://www.beachaudio.com or http://www.speakerhardware.com

Also, 3015 Kappalites are far far more forgiving with random cabinet design swaps than deltalites.

rpsands · #14 05-19-2010, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnnycat42

Not to hijack this thread but I have a 4 Ohm Avatar SB112 I recently got. It has the Eminence 500 watt 12" speaker. I really love the tone and cab but need the flexibility of having an 8 Ohm speaker to mix and match it with my setup. Anyone have a recommendation for a replacement speaker? I would love to just trade it straight up with someone but that seems unlikely so I am now shopping for a replacement speaker. Would the same recommendations already mentioned apply?

Order the 8 ohm deltalite 2512 II with extended xmax from Avatar; it will be cheaper and better than most replacements.

The Avatar SB112 cabinet is also a candidate for a modification to use an Alphalite 6 CBMR and Kappalite 3012LF with a crossover, but that is a more costly and extensive modification.

agedhorse · #15 05-19-2010, 12:00 PM

Do your T-S parameter homework withthe cabinet youintend to use. The answer may be obvious.

MikeBass · #16 05-19-2010, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by agedhorse

Do your T-S parameter homework withthe cabinet youintend to use. The answer may be obvious.

Oh hell!!! I'm busted!!! LOL!!!

I'm WAYYYYY too lazy for all that stuff Andy. I'm just messin around with this thing.
Even with a pair of DeltaLites, I'd be into this thing for under $350. And I priced the Delta's at PartsExpress at $129 a piece....

I'm just goofing around with this cab. But I like their design to be honest.
Like someone else said in another thread about it, it's just too unconventional for most I guess.

Had a design like this ever crossed you minds at GB?
A NEOX212T with the top speaker tilted up a few degrees for when your standing on top of it.
(I know I know, just buy a pair of 112's and kick the foot down/aim it up on the upper one!)

rpsands · #17 05-19-2010, 01:09 PM

The Neox212T will aim right at your ears with a very small wedge under the front. It's a very tall cabinet

Get your deltalites at beachaudio or speakerhardware, probably down around 100 bucks apiece.

I'd also consider Basslite S2012s now that I think about it. Good driver at a great price (around 70 apiece from Beach).

Just be mindful of your volume

agedhorse · #18 05-19-2010, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeBass

Oh hell!!! I'm busted!!! LOL!!!

I'm WAYYYYY too lazy for all that stuff Andy. I'm just messin around with this thing.
Even with a pair of DeltaLites, I'd be into this thing for under $350. And I priced the Delta's at PartsExpress at $129 a piece....

I'm just goofing around with this cab. But I like their design to be honest.
Like someone else said in another thread about it, it's just too unconventional for most I guess.

Had a design like this ever crossed you minds at GB?
A NEOX212T with the top speaker tilted up a few degrees for when your standing on top of it.
(I know I know, just buy a pair of 112's and kick the foot down/aim it up on the upper one!)

Being lazy or goofing around is not a good excues for not doing the best job you can, AND if you get it wrong enough you will end up with a POS in practice.

If you are too lazy to do it right, you will certainly be too lazy to do it again right?

MikeBass · #19 05-19-2010, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by agedhorse

Being lazy or goofing around is not a good excues for not doing the best job you can, AND if you get it wrong enough you will end up with a POS in practice.

If you are too lazy to do it right, you will certainly be too lazy to do it again right?

Oh just stop already!!!!

Jeez.......beat a guy up over a little fun!

Worst case is, I'm stuck putting the stock speakers back in and giving to the church for their rehearsal room or something. And I'm stuck with selling (maybe) a pair of nice 12's used. I'm sure Don at LDS would take the speakers off my hands. So I'd take a small loss on them.
Plus, I like just tinkering around with things. And I'm not doing it with my GB or AccuGroove stuff!

The upside to this is, Vic had huge success with just dropping in the Delta's with doing nothing at all. Pure luck really.The cab sounds stinkin great.

JimmyM · #20 05-19-2010, 01:55 PM

i see both andy's and mike's point. yes, ts parameters are the best way to do it, but for those of us who don't understand how winisd works, fortunately now there are a base of people who have already done the homework on the neos and can give you a good idea if a speaker will work in your similar-sized cab.