Demo: fEARful 15/6 vs Genz Benz UB 212T

[lelandcrooks]

Well done.

[guy n. cognito]

Originally Posted by SBsoundguy

You can buy a flat pack with prebuilt crossover and prebuilt switchable mid from Speaker Hardware for $743+shipping.

Originally Posted by Foz

That's a clown comment Bro'

My comparison was on the price of used to used as described by the OP.

But FWIW the no significant difference price comparison is true for new/new per the OP's report of the price for a new GB and of course one could build a fEARful 15/6 for less even if you opt for the easy to assemble flatpack approach.

http://www.speakerhardware.com/fearf...deluxe-kit.php

I'm not sure what a "clown comment" is, bro, but please reread the OP. New vs used.

A flatpack does bring down the price.....if you value your time at zero.

New/new prices on the two are similar, if you assume the GB will be purchased at full retail and the fF is purchased from an authorized dealer in the most basic of setups. Most dealers of GB gear (like MF) regularly offer discounts. MF sends out about 12 15% off coupons a year, which would bring the price down to about $950 shipped. At that, you're comparing the price of 4 ohm, dual woofer cab to a 8ohm single woofer.

That's all a huge aside to the point of this thread. No more digression from me.

[guy n. cognito]

Originally Posted by HolmeBass

I didn't build it, but MSU said it was a stock Greenboy spec build, so I think it is the 18sound mid, but probably with the X-over with reduced mids? I am not certain though. For me it works very well.

The one thing that my comparison doesn't catch is just how much deeper the fEARful goes, especially on the rock tune, the bottom is much more solid and present when the bass and amp are not necessarily EQed for a lot of bass, if that makes any sense.

That's kinda what I figured. I recently changed out the mid in my 15/6 from a 18sound to one from Fatial, and I find it much smoother in the high mids.

I had both cabinets as well and did a lot of comparison. I did find that the 15/6 had slightly more low end. The GB had plenty of low end, but it was tighter. I do find myself having to cut low end slightly when gigging my 15/6 in order to reduce boom in many rooms I play. I also do have to run a HPF when I gig my 15/6. All that low end does come in handy at outdoor gigs, though, where the GB seems to need a bit of a low end boost.

[obimark]

To my ears would go with the GB 212, (and just may if I get a new job). Both sound good though, but the fearful is not the Be-All/end-all that many devotees claim, (it is real good, but that GB matches it quite well.) the vertical orientation of the GB should project more on a gig and allow easier hearing of what I am playing on stage (IMHO)

[Bmorefoozler]

Originally Posted by guy n. cognito

I'm not sure what a "clown comment" is, bro, but please reread the OP. New vs used.

.

floor model does not equal new. It does not quite equal used either, but it certainly does not equal new.

[guy n. cognito]

Originally Posted by Bmorefoozler

floor model does not equal new. It does not quite equal used either, but it certainly does not equal new.

It has a new warranty and has not been owned by any other individual. It has been demoed in the store, but for limited amounts of time at reasonable volumes.

Sounds new to me............ There was a time, before the internet, that most gear purchased new had been sitting in a store for some period of time and had been played by someone other than the original owner. It's a very recent trend to believe that "new" can only mean delivered directly to my home in the original, unsealed manufacturer's box.

[wcriley]

I applaud HolmeBass for his efforts in making and posting this comparison. But, as with all such comparison clips, there are a few things to keep in mind when listeing:

1. The amp and instrument were EQ'd to the particular tastes of the player. I'm sure that I or anyone else would have EQ'd to suit our tatses...and likely gotten different results.

2. The recordings were done at a distance of 5 feet, so the room would have significantly influenced the recorded sound.

3. Even HolmeBass admits that the recordings do not adequately represent the LF differences between the cabs.

I could go on, but you get the picture.

[scottfeldstein]

Truth. It's nice, though, that it's understood by store personnel that you can expect 15% off when buying that "floor model."

[wcriley]

Originally Posted by guy n. cognito

It has a new warranty and has not been owned by any other individual. It has been demoed in the store, but for limited amounts of time at reasonable volumes.

Sounds new to me............

Yep.
No different than buying a new car that has been loaded on and off a truck, driven around the lot, and then maybe even test driven by a potential customer.

[Bmorefoozler]

Originally Posted by wcriley

Yep.
No different than buying a new car that has been loaded on and off a truck, driven around the lot, and then maybe even test driven by a potential customer.

Would you pay the same price for a car with 1000 miles? It's inconsequential in the long run, but having worked at several car dealerships, I can tell you for a fact that it takes someone asleep at hte wheel to not get a screaming deal on said car, even with only 1k miles. Now a DEMO, that has been used 5-7k miles will get a HEFTY discount beyond what is possible for a car with 12 miles...

[guy n. cognito]

Originally Posted by Bmorefoozler

Would you pay the same price for a car with 1000 miles? It's inconsequential in the long run, but having worked at several car dealerships, I can tell you for a fact that it takes someone asleep at hte wheel to not get a screaming deal on said car, even with only 1k miles. Now a DEMO, that has been used 5-7k miles will get a HEFTY discount beyond what is possible for a car with 12 miles...

We're talking about a cab that has been sitting in a music store, never gigged, never owned by an individual and always played at reasonable volumes. With full warranty...........

It's new. Can we move on??

[nostatic]

Interesting. I'm certainly hearing the upper mid aggression in the fEARful that some talk about. The only other thing I'll offer is that unless you play solo bass these type of listening comparisons have to be taken with a grain of salt as sitting in a mix is a very different thing.

Also agree that wrt cost, if you're going to compare numbers and have the parts figure, you need to factor in labor time.

[HolmeBass]

Originally Posted by obimark

To my ears would go with the GB 212, (and just may if I get a new job). Both sound good though, but the fearful is not the Be-All/end-all that many devotees claim, (it is real good, but that GB matches it quite well.) the vertical orientation of the GB should project more on a gig and allow easier hearing of what I am playing on stage (IMHO)

From my experience this is not the case. The diagonal - not vertical - orientation of the drivers in the GB UB 212T does not help in comprehension on the bandstand. Rather, the much improved mids dispersion of the 6" driver helps make the fEARful easier to hear on a cramped bandstand. That said, the improvement is not as dramatic as I has hoped.

To another poster- I do not plan to add a tweeter. The sound topping out around 5kHz is plenty for me.

To another poster, I did not pay retail for the GB, they gave me ~$100 off for it being a floor model. I consider these cabinets to be about equally priced. Also, no need for a separate HPF since the Genz SM 9.2 has an excellent HPF built in, as do most modern bass amps.

Originally Posted by wcriley

I applaud HolmeBass for his efforts in making and posting this comparison. But, as with all such comparison clips, there are a few things to keep in mind when listeing:

1. The amp and instrument were EQ'd to the particular tastes of the player. I'm sure that I or anyone else would have EQ'd to suit our tatses...and likely gotten different results.

2. The recordings were done at a distance of 5 feet, so the room would have significantly influenced the recorded sound.

3. Even HolmeBass admits that the recordings do not adequately represent the LF differences between the cabs.

I could go on, but you get the picture.

EQing is a big point. I EQ slightly on the dark side.

As for the room, a lot less of it entered the recording than you might think. I certainly hear none of the rattles and such that were present! What we are missing with a mid-field recording is the proximity effect on the microphones, which almost certainly changes the bass response of the entire recording chain. But proximity effect can be something of a bandpass function, so I wanted to avoid it.

A better recording device (!! - mine is really not good!) and better mics, and a better room (just quieter) would all greatly improve the results for comparison.

Someone also mentioned solo bass vs sitting in a band mix. The fEARful is winning extra-large on the bandstand. I am used to people I play with complimenting my tone, but a few of the real tone hounds I play with were just gaga over the fEARful. Really. When the guitarist comes over after a gig and stares at your cabinet, and then profusely compliments how it sounded, that's a good sign. Also the sound men I work with love it- less beaming, less projection, easier on FOH. Plus I think I am just running quieter with the fF b/c I am having less trouble hearing myself.

[wcriley]

Originally Posted by HolmeBass

...As for the room, a lot less of it entered the recording than you might think. I certainly hear none of the rattles and such that were present! What we are missing with a mid-field recording is the proximity effect on the microphones, which almost certainly changes the bass response of the entire recording chain. But proximity effect can be something of a bandpass function, so I wanted to avoid it...

I wasn't criticizing your method...just pointing out that, in the mid field, the mics could be picking up at least some of the cancellations and reinforcements caused by the size, shape and construction of the room.

As an example: In the part of my basement where my band practices, there is huge bump around 650 Hz...regardless of the listening position or speaker placement within that space.
I haven't tried it, but I feel fairly certain that a mic placed 5' from a source would hear that bump...unless the mic is hyper directional.
The rehearsal space also sucks out the very low frequencies, but this varies with cab placement and listening position.

[Foz]

Also agree that wrt cost, if you're going to compare numbers and have the parts figure, you need to factor in labor time.

Absolutely!

Or not... if you want to factor the labor cost out then consider that if you buy a fEARful from one of the Authorized Builders, though you will pay a bit more than the OP's alternative GB cab new, my original reaction stands - I would have expected to pay a significant premium for the fEARful but apparently you don't have to do that = price is about the same*.

* OP sez: $850 for a used floor model and new-in-box was about a hundred more - so $950-ish + tax. My closest AB is Mark at BNA Audio of Nashville and he lists the 15/6+1 [with a horn] at $1,100 + shipping.

So the advantages the OP finds in the fEARful cab are available for a lot less than I would have thought. Maybe a bit over $100 all-in?

http://www.bnaaudio.com/products/products.htm

===

I did not pay retail for the GB, they gave me ~$100 off for it being a floor model. I consider these cabinets to be about equally priced.

Yeah I got that the first time you explained it... neither cab was new & you paid $50 less for the fEARful.

You get a virtual smart shopper merit badge!



http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/...s/mb-PERM.aspx

[Bmorefoozler]

Originally Posted by Foz

Yeah I got that the first time you explained it... neither cab was new & you paid $50 less for the fEARful.

shhhh... I thought guy N cognito stated it(his opinion) as undisputable fact that demo equals new, and we aren't allowed to discuss it as anything else anymore..
But yes, I got the same thing from the OP.

And a tweeter isn't essential with a fearful for msot tonal goals so that 1100 goes down, some...

[Foz]

Trolls gonna troll...

[RedMoses]

THE GB seems more round and phat.

[okcrum]

Authorized built vs. built prices changes the game, of course, but as a kit the 15/6 kills for value. I heard both (and more!) at the AZ GTG.

[SBsoundguy]

Originally Posted by guy n. cognito

A flatpack does bring down the price.....if you value your time at zero.

It's not like you have to take off work to put it together. Maybe doing it on a Sunday afternoon while watching a football game at the same time. I found the experience to be rewarding when building some of Bill Fitz's cabs, and the difference with the flat packs is everything is pre-cut, so all of the hard work is already done.