Demo: fEARful 15/6 vs Genz Benz UB 212T

[slade]

What I get from the clips ( and what I'm personally looking for) is the overall tonal flavor of these cabs. The overall tonal differences between those two cabs in those clips are super obvious to me, hence super informative and helpful. The next piece of the puzzle is feedback from people who's playing you respect and who's experience is similar to your own. Because I gig a lot I want to hear from working players- those opinions coupled with sound clips, especially clips like this comparing two pieces of equipment, are great. Off axis would be cool, but like I said, your recordings already did a great job of highlighting the differences in these two cabs..

[mbelue]

Thanks for posting these dude. Anytime and effort you spent on this benefits us all, regardless of testing method. I think, regardless of who you are we are all listening for something different to compare, so people are always gonna ask for more.

[dukeorock]

Regardless of whether anyone gets to do off axis tests, it probably goes without saying that a dedicated mid driver, high end compression driver/horn and vertical alignment are gonne yield quite a bit better off axis performance.

I have tons of touring experience with both of these cabs, but as an authorized greenboy builder, I'm sure my opinion can be seen as less than objective

[smogg]

Originally Posted by dukeorock

It would be nice if you could try one first, to make sure it's the right fit for you. So far, we've been batting 1,000 with that cab...every customer has been thrilled with theirs. We have one customer who originally wanted two Dually's because he assumed one wouldn't be enough for his needs, volume-wise. After a few talks, he went with a Dually and a Bassic15...he no uses the Bassic15 on nearly all of his gigs

Originally Posted by Lazarus.Bird

People keep asking me "so when are you going to buy a second Dually?" Probably never, considering my Orange Terror Bass 1000 volume knob is at 9:00 and everything is already loud enough to make skulls explode.

Absolute volume is not an issue for me. I have not doubts the greenboy cab(s) get quite loud. I am more concerned with the tone pallet. Example; with my bass (USA Millennium 5er) on the NeoX cab tweeter is rolled pretty much off, plus a bump @ 100hz and a little cut in the 700 to 800 range. This gives me a very nice smoothish rock tone. From the comparison clips I heard at the front of this thread from the kind OP, the 15/6 seems a little too hi-fi for my needs. So I'm thinking that the Dually might sound similar to the NeoX w/tweet off just more big?wide? fat? Not sure how to phrase it. Not sure if I'm making sense at this point...lol...

[slade]

Originally Posted by dukeorock

Regardless of whether anyone gets to do off axis tests, it probably goes without saying that a dedicated mid driver, high end compression driver/horn and vertical alignment are gonne yield quite a bit better off axis performance.

I have tons of touring experience with both of these cabs, but as an authorized greenboy builder, I'm sure my opinion can be seen as less than objective

Your opinion is extremely valuable to me, as you sound professional, experienced, knowledgeable, and honest.

[dukeorock]

Originally Posted by smogg

So I'm thinking that the Dually might sound similar to the NeoX w/tweet off just more big?wide? fat? Not sure how to phrase it. Not sure if I'm making sense at this point...lol...

That sounds about right actually, and you'll most likely need less boost at 100hz, I'm guessing

[dukeorock]

Originally Posted by slade

Your opinion is extremely valuable to me, as you sound professional, experienced, knowledgeable, and honest.

That's very kind of you to say, bro. I try to be honest. I have some pretty big endorsements, and only decided to build greenboy cabs because those are the only cabs I want to play at this point.

Back to the OT...to my ears, that clips does a VERY GOOD job of showing the basic tonal differences between the two cabs in question. Obviously in the context of a gig, I think the fEARful just does a much better job of slicing through and finding it's place in the band mix.

Someone also rightly pointed out earlier that you can get the 15/6 to sound very similar to the Genz with some careful eq, but you can't really do the reverse.

[Foz]

Originally Posted by HolmeBass

No, it's not apples to apples because one cabinet is a 4 ohm box and the other is an 8 ohm box AND they don't have the same efficiency, either.

If some arbitrary group of listeners are given two clips, where one clip is consistently 1 to 2 dB louder than the other, they will overwhelmingly select the louder clip as better. Volume equality is crucial to these kinds of comparisons. In short I think your assertion that we don't care about calibration is a serious error- we do care about a certain amount of calibration to make it an effective comparison.

Since the master volume knob is going to practically give you any desired volume, the only sensible way to compare two different cabinets is to have the volumes be as close to equal as possible. Now extend that to an off-axis response test- I think that would mean you'd want equal volume for the on-axis measurement, and no further adjustments for the off-axis recording. This is not going to be easy for me to do with my equipment.

Note, as I said above, that a "within cab" comparison is possible because you don't need volume equality. You just listen to one cabinet's response on-axis and off-axis and decide what you think about that. But I think it is a given that people are going to compare the 30 degrees off-axis sounds from each of the two cabinets- and if you don't have some sort of volume normalization scheme those comparisons are going to be misleading.

Also, tilt the cabinet so that the tweeter is pointed at the mic? Sounds like a huge PITA and somewhat worthless too boot. It would inflate the off-axis difference for the one cab that has a tweeter.

Now you're welcome to do any demo you want, but I think what you've suggested would result in something not only uninformative, but actually potentially misleading.

If you change the signal to the two cabs you will not be comparing the output with parity - instead you will compare two different signals to two different cabs. That's fine but its a different test than an apples to apples input X gives out [?].

And yes the volume of the cabs would be different - a lot of things would be different - that's the whole point. One cab being slightly louder would throw some folks for a loop - but in this sort of thing the listener has to bring a certain amount of sophistication to their ear and brain or they won't learn near as much as they could.

To do an equal loudness test you need to borrow a dB meter [a cheap Radio Shack one will do - ask around lots of folks got em for their audiophile rigs and such]. Again no need to calibrate - just run a pink noise signal and adjust the master until you get the same reading [dBa - slow setting] with the meter in the same location.

You tilt the cab so the elements are on axis in the vertical plane - so when you move off-axis in the horizontal plane that is the only variable. To retain parity tilt both cabs the same amount [do something simple like put a 2x4 under the back edge]. PM me and I can send a paper on ground plane measurement techniques if you are interested.

If not, that's fine - like I said I'm not trying to give you chores just letting you know uncalibrated on-axis / off-axis comparison clips wouldn't be rocket surgery. in fact only a little more complicated than what you doing [which I think is pretty neat BTW].

==

If you can borrow a loop pedal it's easier to tweak recording levels with the loop running and then hit record. Final adjustments will be minor.

45 deg off axis please!

Two lines - two good ideas - this may be a TB record!

[derrico1]

Originally Posted by HolmeBass

Now extend that to an off-axis response test- I think that would mean you'd want equal volume for the on-axis measurement, and no further adjustments for the off-axis recording. This is not going to be easy for me to do with my equipment.

Yes. Riffs recorded to a looper (I've loaned mine to the Lusionistics, but I can call Larissa for it if you need one). Chalk a few arcs (say at 3', 6', & 10'), or just use tape to mark your spots: mic at 6' high (ear-level, more or less), straight-ahead, 45°, 60°, maybe 90° as well. Use an SPL meter to set on-axis volume at a specific target level, then record the off-axis samples. (I also have an SPL meter boxed up somewhere in studio storage if you need one.)

Probably need some bourbon to make the process work, but otherwise it should be straight-ahead.

[Downunderwonder]

Record the loop before the bourbon.

[makohund]

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

Record the loop before the bourbon.

And after, so we can do a proper comparison.

[winegamd]

Probably need some bourbon to make the process work, but otherwise it should be straight-ahead.

Would that be straight-ahead or straight-up?

[modulusman]

I wonder how the fearful would compare to this. http://www.musiciansfriend.com/ampli...peaker-cabinet I have never heard one but I really like my Uber 212 and 410 cabs.

[CL400Peavey]

Originally Posted by modulusman

I wonder how the fearful would compare to this. http://www.musiciansfriend.com/ampli...peaker-cabinet I have never heard one but I really like my Uber 212 and 410 cabs.

Would have to try it out. No idea what the woofer in there is, so its hard to know what kind of low end extension it has. What can be said is that at 58 pounds its pretty heavy when compared to any of the "Super 12's" out there.

[Foz]

The corner handles are cool.

[guy n. cognito]

Originally Posted by modulusman

I wonder how the fearful would compare to this. http://www.musiciansfriend.com/ampli...peaker-cabinet I have never heard one but I really like my Uber 212 and 410 cabs.

The quad is awesome. Tighter low end than a fF (which is a good thing to some) and very even response. They sound fantastic. Like most fF/multidriver designs, they are pretty expensive for a 8 ohm cab.

Originally Posted by Foz

The corner handles are cool.

Only to look at. They are one of the few complaints I have with the GB cabs. Very difficult to schlep given that the cab is hanging low and hitting you in the knees.

[Lazarus.Bird]

Originally Posted by smogg

Absolute volume is not an issue for me. I have not doubts the greenboy cab(s) get quite loud. I am more concerned with the tone pallet. Example; with my bass (USA Millennium 5er) on the NeoX cab tweeter is rolled pretty much off, plus a bump @ 100hz and a little cut in the 700 to 800 range. This gives me a very nice smoothish rock tone. From the comparison clips I heard at the front of this thread from the kind OP, the 15/6 seems a little too hi-fi for my needs. So I'm thinking that the Dually might sound similar to the NeoX w/tweet off just more big?wide? fat? Not sure how to phrase it. Not sure if I'm making sense at this point...lol...

Well it's not JUST loud, it also sounds fantastic! I do have some clips, but they are only recorded with a Zoom H4n for band purposes. But if you want to hear how a Dually sounds in a band mix with a Ric with flats running fuzz into an Orange TB 1000, I have those =P

[pickles]

Originally Posted by HolmeBass

Slade, that's actually a good idea. Although with only two choices there's a 50-50 proposition of getting the selection "right" randomly, I'll still give that a shot.

Pickles, the off-axis measurement is a neat idea, but technically difficult to execute. I would have to make sure to maintain almost exactly the same distance from the cab with mic placement, and then balancing the gain between the two cabs would be tough- I couldn't rely on my after-the-fact Audacity balancing b/c part of what we'd be looking at is minor change in volume with mic position. So each would be a "within cab" comparison of off-angle response. Comparing the cab recording against each other, say for "20% off axis" would not work unless the recording/amp gain matched exactly, which proves difficult to do.

Such a comparison would probably fare better with much better controlled recording environment to remove room reflection and some test program white or pink noise, or perhaps even better a narrow-banded signal centered on a particular frequency, rather than erratic program material from yours truly. Too much work for me.

I think the imperfection is fine. The whole point of the fearful is that it sounds pretty much the same no matter where you stand and in any room. A trad cab will sound super muffled when you get further off axis.

Cut a piece of string 10 feet long and have a friend hold I on the cab while you move the mic. Measure the angle with a protractor if you have one or just mark it on a piece of paper to make it consistent. Do 0, 30, 45, 60.

I don't think blind matters on this, the difference is pretty drastic/obvious.

I don't really want to AB Genz vs fearful at 60 degrees, just want to hear them each vs themselves, so not too worried about gain diff.

And I know it's totally unreasonable to ask you to do anything more

[pickles]

Originally Posted by dukeorock

Regardless of whether anyone gets to do off axis tests, it probably goes without saying that a dedicated mid driver, high end compression driver/horn and vertical alignment are gonne yield quite a bit better off axis performance.

I have tons of touring experience with both of these cabs, but as an authorized greenboy builder, I'm sure my opinion can be seen as less than objective

The question is just about HOW different it is in practice. We all know how trad cabs are off axis -- not great. Wondering if a fearful is enough better off axis to rebuild a rig around it.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by pickles

The question is just about HOW different it is in practice. We all know how trad cabs are off axis -- not great. Wondering if a fearful is enough better off axis to rebuild a rig around it.

A point I always make just to clarify this issue, which I believe is one of the most misrepresented technical issues on the site.

If you don't know much about this stuff, and read all the fEARful info, what comes through is 'the cab will spread the bass around the room better' or 'the midrange is better off axis', etc. This is misleading IMO.

UPPER midrange tends to beam through a larger cone. It doesn't happen 'all at once', but gradually happens as you get higher up in the frequency range. With a nicely designed vertical 210, it starts about 1K or so (STARTS is key... not massive beaming) and then gets tighter as you go up.

Once you hit a tweeter, the issue is mute. So, in most cases, we are talking about moderate beaming (by moderate, I mean the percent of the typical bass guitar tone within that range relative to other frequencies.... very different thing than the upper mid dominant tone of a guitar) in a very narrow range that, for many is not a key part of the bass guitar 'energy generation'. As a matter of fact, that relatively small slice of upper midrange between around 1K and where a good quality tweeter kicks in (around 3.5K) is often called the 'gank' area, and is often softened by the user with EQ, or purposely dialed out of the tuning of the cab (many 410's are based on this tone profile).

So, YES, a mid driver will increase the spread of a relatively narrow band of UPPER midrange. Of course, if you use a 15/6 without a tweeter, that will actually beam treble MORE than a traditional cab.

The benefit is real, but as the OP noticed when comparing both his cabs off axis, it can range from a 'moderate positive' (for example, for metal type players who have a lot of aggressive upper midrange distortion) to virtually a non-issue (for example, pop/funk players who like to have a bit of separation between the mid-midrange and the treble response).

As long as the player keeps this in mind, then it MIGHT or MIGHT NOT be an important issue, and with some, might be a relatively strong negative (not the reduction in beaming, but the relative spike in the upper midrange... with the original fEARful spec of the aggressive 18Sound mid-driver, and high quality but simple crossover... a real wallup of 2K).

IMO and quite a bit of IME on this one.

Edit: The PRIMARY benefit of using a mid driver is the ability to use a deeper voiced woofer, which for some who like a lot of bass extension relative to 'punchy low midrange' can be a STRONG positive.