The question is just about HOW different it is in practice. We all know how trad cabs are off axis -- not great. Wondering if a fearful is enough better off axis to rebuild a rig around it.
IME the answer is yes, it is worth it.
I actually use less volume at practice now because I and everyone else can hear what is coming thorough my '66 better than they could with my 810. Its to the point where my guitarist is starting to take note of how badly his 412 cab beams. Off axis he would say our rigs are pretty matched in volume, but standing directly in front of his will take your head off. My rig is so much more even through out the room.
This has really manifested (with this particular band) due to time savings efforts. We have to tear down/set up every practice. The PA, drums, keys, guit and bass rigs all have to be packed away after every practice. On days where we are tight on time we run everything but the drums through my cab.
Vocals
Keys
Guitar pod
Bass Pre
All to the board then into my IPR and 1515/66/1. Point it at the drummer and we are set. Set the balance on the board and bring up the main volume to match the drummer.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyM
Who the heck wants to "cut" through a mix anyway? I want to punch the mix in the balls. Anyone can cut through the mix. Not everyone can beat the mix's ass
The question is just about HOW different it is in practice. We all know how trad cabs are off axis -- not great. Wondering if a fearful is enough better off axis to rebuild a rig around it.
It's going to come down to:
1) Whether you have PA support or depend on your cab to carry the room
2) The room itself
Personally - as someone who
Regularly has to carry the entire room with my rig (no PA or monitors)
Plays on tiny stages where I'm only 1-2' in front of my cab and other players may be not in front of it at all (but 20' to the side)...
I notice a pretty big difference over my previous cabs.
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UPPER midrange tends to beam through a larger cone.
I thought upper midrange was generally defined as 2KHz-6KHz.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KJung
It doesn't happen 'all at once', but gradually happens as you get higher up in the frequency range. With a nicely designed vertical 210, it starts about 1K or so (STARTS is key... not massive beaming) and then gets tighter as you go up.
Yes... but note, Kjung is picking an almost best case cabinet.
10's will beam at a higher frequency than larger speakers, and a vertical alignment helps a lot.
Look at a 2x15 with horizontal alignment for a worse case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KJung
So, YES, a mid driver will increase the spread of a relatively narrow band of UPPER midrange. Of course, if you use a 15/6 without a tweeter, that will actually beam treble MORE than a traditional cab.
Unlikely. Most traditional cabs use a tweeter in a horn, which (intentionally) narrows dispersion significantly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KJung
Edit: The PRIMARY benefit of using a mid driver is the ability to use a deeper voiced woofer, which for some who like a lot of bass extension relative to 'punchy low midrange' can be a STRONG positive.
I disagree - I think the primary benefit of using a mid driver is the ability to use a high xmax woofer, allowing a significant increase in maximum volume for a given physical size/weight.
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If you change the signal to the two cabs you will not be comparing the output with parity - instead you will compare two different signals to two different cabs. That's fine but its a different test than an apples to apples input X gives out [?].
And yes the volume of the cabs would be different - a lot of things would be different - that's the whole point. One cab being slightly louder would throw some folks for a loop - but in this sort of thing the listener has to bring a certain amount of sophistication to their ear and brain or they won't learn near as much as they could.
To do an equal loudness test you need to borrow a dB meter [a cheap Radio Shack one will do - ask around lots of folks got em for their audiophile rigs and such]. Again no need to calibrate - just run a pink noise signal and adjust the master until you get the same reading [dBa - slow setting] with the meter in the same location.
You tilt the cab so the elements are on axis in the vertical plane - so when you move off-axis in the horizontal plane that is the only variable. To retain parity tilt both cabs the same amount [do something simple like put a 2x4 under the back edge]. PM me and I can send a paper on ground plane measurement techniques if you are interested.
If not, that's fine - like I said I'm not trying to give you chores just letting you know uncalibrated on-axis / off-axis comparison clips wouldn't be rocket surgery. in fact only a little more complicated than what you doing [which I think is pretty neat BTW].
==
Two lines - two good ideas - this may be a TB record!
A non-equal volume comparison is useless- useless! The louder recording always sounds better. Does it have more bass? Why yes, it does. More mids and highs too - *because it is louder*.
Also I read a few threads that suggested due to psychoacoustic effects a dB meter, or RMS signal strength measurements, are not as good as simply judging by ear or visually through the size of the wave from in DAW.
The fact is that small differences in output gain from the amplifier, and in the recording gain do have an impact on the tonal characteristics of the recording, but a very minor one. If the instrument's EQ is unchanged, and the amps EQ is unchanged, it is the best way to hear the difference in sound quality provided by the cabinets.
I encourage you to do the test the way you suggest. Come back and tell me that the louder recording doesn't sound better every time. There is no real sense is responding because you are simply not going to convince me you are right - I've done the test and I know you are wrong!! (IMHO, but that's all that really counts to me.)
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I thought upper midrange was generally defined as 2KHz-6KHz.
Yes... but note, Kjung is picking an almost best case cabinet.
10's will beam at a higher frequency than larger speakers, and a vertical alignment helps a lot.
Look at a 2x15 with horizontal alignment for a worse case.
Unlikely. Most traditional cabs use a tweeter in a horn, which (intentionally) narrows dispersion significantly.
I disagree - I think the primary benefit of using a mid driver is the ability to use a high xmax woofer, allowing a significant increase in maximum volume for a given physical size/weight.
The definition of the 'loose term' of upper midrange has a zillion definitions. 1K to 4K, 2K to 6K, whatever. If you boost a narrow Q graphic EQ slider centered at 1K, you will hear basically the 'click' of the bass tone. That is a good excersize for a player to go through in understanding this stuff IMO.
A 210, a 212 (vertical or slightly offset), very similar to my ears off axis (again, especially with a tweeter in the circuit). Again, DEPENDS on how much of that slice of 'upper midrange' you use in your tone.
The reasons we are both stating for the use of a mid driver overlap and are conceptually the same... yes, a high xmax driver will, almost by definition, result in more low end extension, and since there is no free lunch, less upper midrange extension period. So, +1 there. Of course, there is a cost to that also, since the tonality of a two way system with mid driver will be different from a full range driver, no matter how you turn the knobs, due to distortion levels, etc. Again, that of course, depends, and can be a positive or negative to the player.
Of course, if you are playing a P Bass with flats, all this gets MUCH less impactful
In general, +1, and we are saying very similar things. The key is that these designs will not really impact the 'meat' of many bass tones
A 210, a 212 (vertical or slightly offset), very similar to my ears off axis (again, especially with a tweeter in the circuit). Again, DEPENDS on how much of that slice of 'upper midrange' you use in your tone.
I use almost zero upper midrange in my tone (P-Bass with flats -> Ampeg B-18 head set flat) - and I notice a big difference when I'm standing slightly in front, but 20' to the side, of my cab.
That is comparing to a horizontal 2x10 with tweeter. Massive difference in clarity at high angles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KJung
Of course, if you are playing a P Bass with flats, all this gets MUCH less impactful
As someone who almost exclusively plays a P Bass with flats, I disagree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KJung
In general, +1, and we are saying very similar things. The key is that these designs will not really impact the 'meat' of many bass tones
I agree - they'll just make it sound more "the same" across a wider range of dispersion angles and allow you to go much LOUDER for a given physical package/weight.
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I use almost zero upper midrange in my tone (P-Bass with flats -> Ampeg B-18 head set flat) - and I notice a big difference when I'm standing slightly in front, but 20' to the side, of my cab.
That is comparing to a horizontal 2x10 with tweeter. Massive difference in clarity at high angles.
As someone who almost exclusively plays a P Bass with flats, I disagree.
I agree - they'll just make it sound more "the same" across a wider range of dispersion angles and allow you to go much LOUDER for a given physical package/weight.
Again, if it makes a difference for you, that is a good thing.... you have the right rig! As long as the people reading the info on these designs realize what is impacted and what is not, and that like with ANY design decision, there are positives and negatives (depending on the player).
Well it's not JUST loud, it also sounds fantastic! I do have some clips, but they are only recorded with a Zoom H4n for band purposes. But if you want to hear how a Dually sounds in a band mix with a Ric with flats running fuzz into an Orange TB 1000, I have those =P
Yes please , would love to hear the Dually in a band context thank-you-very-much
PS: Does your Dually have the Eminence or Faital drivers?
PSS: Pics?
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The Genz 1288 sounds interesting, and kinda cool. I know a couple other players that will agree that; the lows are very attenuated, and overall the cab sounds "tight but not in a good way." That was a quote from a pretty big contributor here on TB. Agreed that the corner handles look neat but the benefits are offset by how short the cab is to begin with It's a neat little hi-fi sorta cab in it's own way.
I'm not sure why a few select folks feel the need to come to fF related threads and tell folks to settle down, these aren't the be all end all for everyone...if I see a thread where someone asks what the best 410 is, I give them my opinion, and since we don't make a 410, we leave ourselves out of the conversation as far as greenboy cabs go, because they are looking for something else, and that is FINE I wouldn't go on a Mesa thread to tell someone their gear isn't as cool as they think it is...if they love it, they do.
As far as design limitations go...sorry, I just can't find them on greenboy 3 way cabs...at least in the same way a couple folks can. We take out demo/loaner cabs around Nashville all the time and have lots of players of every style try them and the benefits of these cabs shine every time. In fact, they do 'carry the room better' then the vast majority of cabs. I've tested this many times against many full range cabs and the results are consistent. Are the lows strong and deep? Yep, and I turn them down on some gigs. Are the mids strong? Yep, and I turn 'em down in situations where I don't need them. They work on blues gigs with flats very well, they work on funk gigs very well, the slap upright guys are going crazy for them. I use them on punk rock gigs and yes, they are great for metal Off axis response is, in fact, much better than most.
I'm not out to dis any other design...there are some wonderful ones out there. But a good question is, why are so many greenboy cab users so seemingly fanatical? It might be because they love their cabs...sayin'
Higher xmax doesn't mean lower end extension. That's more to do with Fs, Q, and Vas related to the size and tuning of the box. Xmax lets you move more air, but high xmax with super high Fs isn't going to give you a lot.
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Swollen Pickle and an FEA Opti-Fet compressor
Orange BT500 -> Arnopol Composite Fearless F215
Well technically it's not a derail. Still comparing a Greenboy cab to a Genz cab. So we are still kinda sorta still on topic.
As far as your clips go, all I can say is WoW... way big sound. Kinda like the pissed off love child of Geezer & Lemmy. I dig it, very solid work. Great looking cab and the matching head case is a nice touch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazarus.Bird
Well I don't want to derail from the original topic, but since Dually compared to the GB came up...
Ric with flats, fuzz and OD into Orange Terror Bass 1000 with the Dually. Recorded with a Zoom H4n at our practice space.
Also, the bandcamp stuff in my sig was also recorded with the Dually.
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"...it's just the bass player. No one listens to them anyways..." - bonzo4880
Peavey USA Millennium Club Member #10 - OFBPOAC #25 - Promethean Club #6
Higher xmax doesn't mean lower end extension. That's more to do with Fs, Q, and Vas related to the size and tuning of the box. Xmax lets you move more air, but high xmax with super high Fs isn't going to give you a lot.
+1 Generally stating that a mid driver allows you to use a more 'robust' woofer and still get a full range sound.
Well technically it's not a derail. Still comparing a Greenboy cab to a Genz cab. So we are still kinda sorta still on topic.
As far as your clips go, all I can say is WoW... way big sound. Kinda like the pissed off love child of Geezer & Lemmy. I dig it, very solid work. Great looking cab and the matching head case is a nice touch.
Thanks guys! I don't have any experience with the traditional fearful cabs, but when the 2x15 selection from the big companies is so damn sparse, going with the Dually was a no brainer for me. Being able to carry it up and down stairs one handed ain't so bad either :P
Haha 3?! From what I can tell, most people who buy one, buy a few more I guess if he bought 3 he really likes them. I can't wait for mine, it's driving me nuts!
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, would love to hear the Dually in a band context thank-you-very-much 
It's a neat little hi-fi sorta cab in it's own way.
I wouldn't go on a Mesa thread to tell someone their gear isn't as cool as they think it is...if they love it, they do.
