DI to FOH = Accurate Sound?

behndy · #1 08-12-2010, 09:15 AM

so.... this is for those of you with all those gobs of experience playing with the option of mic'd vs di to board.... i'm looking at you Jimmy....

my tones sound noticeably different if i'm going through my main rig, or my main combo, or a friend's rig i've run through on occasion. and i just run a pedalboard to a power amp to speakers.... with the eq section if it's a combo as flat as i can get it. some distortions and/or strange noise boxes that i run through i have to adjust them different for what speaker setup i'm running through.... so wondered if that carry over to a totally different setup like a PA FOH.

do you worry about everything sounding wonky on the house speakers? since they might be a very different combination of sizes that have a very different response to certain types of sounds then your bass rig?

murrrrrrrr?

WalterBush · #2 08-12-2010, 09:22 AM

Personally, I don't worry about it. My band sounds different through different PAs, though my frontend (active bass-->wireless-->Summit Audio TD-100) never changes. An experienced FOH guy will know how to run their system and make you sound good. I do tweak the knobs on my bass so that it sounds as close as I can get to the sound of my bass run flat through studio monitors; it's one reason I play active basses.

Even if you lugged your own bass rig with you, loud enough to rival whatever PA you're going through, the rest of the band will sound different anyway, affecting the whole mix. The only way to get around it that I'm aware of is to either buy your own PA and always use it, or arrange to work very closely with whoever's running your sound until you're happy. Which you should do, anyway, IMO

christw · #3 08-12-2010, 09:29 AM

One venue I've played at cut back from their full PA for our show. It was a treble fest. No subs were employed and he made me run straight from my Bass VT to the board. The bass VT was voiced for high end grit. My amp added the booty and he wouldn't let me turn that up or DI out from it. Sounded like hot crap to me. :/

behndy · #4 08-12-2010, 09:32 AM

BushyWalter - lol.... i ALWAYS try to be friends with the sound guy. sometimes i bring him/her kittens.

hurr... i guess, more than just "that's not my tone" miniscule differences that really... don't even come across to the audience (unless a feloow TB'r is out there), i'm worried about pedals working WRONG. i have a few pedals that i love, but if i use them on one rig they do what they're s'posed to. but on another i have to adjust them so that they don't drop into self-oscillation and get TOO wacky.

and yeah... i run my setup -> bass -> effects -> VT Deluxe so that the DI is at the end of the chain. i like the IDEA of plugging in the DI and having the same sound come out everywhere.

thanks!!

behndy · #5 08-12-2010, 09:33 AM

ChristosW - yep! THAT kind of thing is scary too!

christw · #6 08-12-2010, 09:55 AM

Hah, you've got an FLCL avatar! I love it!

Anyways, I fixed it by running a P bass with DP127 flat with no effects. It does it's job and nothing more... filling in the low.

gastric · #7 08-12-2010, 10:01 AM

DI at the end of your chain is the key. And if you're running your own personal amp and prefer that amp's sound, you'd want a post EQ DI assuming the amp can provide it.

Slightly related, I've been running Mesa heads through an Accugroove El Whappo Jr. That's a 4-way bass cab. No idea how anyone would successfully mic it. 3 mics? Beats me, I always run post EQ DI out and call it a day.

rpsands · #8 08-12-2010, 10:27 AM

I tend to trust the sound guy to give us a good sound, in shorter sets. In longer sets where there's no band changing, I'll walk out in front and have someone play my bass and ask for things (more compression, more 150hz, whatever).

MNAirHead · #9 08-12-2010, 10:34 AM

This is part of my "rant" on "my tone"

I can't tell you how many bassists dial in "my tone" (on a $10k rig) then walk all over a guitarist and vocalist when the entire thing is connected to a cobbled garage sale "PA"

No.. you can send a good signal.. it's then up to the mains, room and staff to take it.

Your live tone concerns should be more about "our tone" and not "my tone" average bass guys forget the bass spectrum commonly can not be articulated as well as primary melodies.

4Mal · #10 08-12-2010, 10:38 AM

One thing to keep in mind is that not every venue is going to work well with a big, loud, rich bass tone on stage. Some rooms, your best bet is as low as you can get away with and let the guy out front do his job... I'll grant that it's way more fun when you can get to a nice full sounding place on stage, you do have to be able to work without it though...

Needless to say, not every sound guy is good and not every one is bad. I read more slagging of sound guys here than is warranted based on my experience with them. The bad guys are weeded out pretty damned fast IME. Sure - once in a while you get a clinker but it just doesn't happen that often to me.

I'm also a firm believer in a 1 tone, 1 level with slight variations per night - unless you're going to rehearse the sound guy with your band and pay him a cut - it's pretty unrealistic to ask him to ride the faders and EQ all night just so your bass sit's in the mix correctly ... me - I'm going to try to sit in the mix as best I can and not mess with it. Then work each song as hard as I can ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by MNAirHead

No.. you can send a good signal.. it's then up to the mains, room and staff to take it.

{snip}

Your live tone concerns should be more about "our tone" and not "my tone"

Truer words were never written ...

WalterBush · #11 08-12-2010, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by behndy

hurr... i guess, more than just "that's not my tone" miniscule differences that really... don't even come across to the audience (unless a feloow TB'r is out there), i'm worried about pedals working WRONG. i have a few pedals that i love, but if i use them on one rig they do what they're s'posed to. but on another i have to adjust them so that they don't drop into self-oscillation and get TOO wacky.

As long as your DI is consistent, I don't see anything a PA could do that would cause your pedals...no matter what synth-laden, envelope filtered, distortion-drenched sound you're crafting...to actually malfunction. The closest I can think is that some monitor setups may cause you to feedback faster than others. Walking out in front of different PAs may result in feedback, too, but if you're DI is consistent (i.e. you always use your VT deluxe) than the PA shouldn't load your signal or affect your effects (ha-ha) at all.

Different bass amps have different input impedances, though, and that could cause some of what you're describing. Is your pedalboard posted on the pedalboard thread? I'm curious as to what you've got running, now.

christw · #12 08-12-2010, 10:47 AM

I feel like I was ill prepared for my gigging situation, so I've compensated. Now I have one basic tone that I can modify by arena. It sounds food with the band. It sounds moderate on its own.

KsPiNeSh · #13 08-12-2010, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by christw

Now I have one basic tone that I can modify by arena. It sounds food with the band. It sounds moderate on its own.

Guessing that you meant "good"... that's often how it works. Nicely done.

JimmyM · #14 08-12-2010, 12:07 PM

so much is in the soundman's hands on any rig that it's really impossible to make generalizations. sometimes it will sound great if the soundman rocks, sometimes it will sound like the soundman stuffed his new kittens in his ears. for example...my vt deluxe sounded wonderful in the house on gigs i played a couple weeks ago, and sounded bright and clanky on a gig i did tuesday night.

behndy · #15 08-12-2010, 12:24 PM

woof. good answers all. so.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by WalterBush

Is your pedalboard posted on the pedalboard thread? I'm curious as to what you've got running, now.

yeppers. ANY excuse to put it up somewhere tho.....

....... the bottom row has been pretty stable for awhile. to the right of the VTD is being saved for some stuff on order. and it's mostly the Ugly Face right to the right of the VTD that i'm concerned about Not Working Correctly with different setups. it's awesome, but very touchy in it's settings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Mal

I'm also a firm believer in a 1 tone, 1 level with slight variations per night....

yeah... i'm not. i TOTALLY see why that is a very smart way to go for some people, but in the band i'm in right now there's no guitars and sequenced, not live, drumming.... so the bass is sorta the main instrument. let's me get silly with the pedalboard and go a bit over the place in tones.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MNAirHead

Your live tone concerns should be more about "our tone" and not "my tone" average bass guys forget the bass spectrum commonly can not be articulated as well as primary melodies.

this. COMPLETELY. i'm not trying to say that the i'm more worried about sounding like i want to in my head, if that doesn't work with everything else going on. again, the bass IS way in the front on most stuff we do, but it's all about how the songs sound. and how everything meshes to get the best sound, overall, coming out. you sir. are correct.

it's just that i've had a couple times where Pedal A did nice delicious stuff on one rig, then disgusting, freaky warbley glitchy (in a bad way) breakup destruction through another.

but somebody said that that might be more of an impedance-handling issue from rig to rig..... and if that's the case, then i was wondering if the same issue would come up after you send your DI signal to somebody to work on.

yeah..... and i don't get the trashing the sound guy. a lot of people on this site have WAY more experience then me, and played WAY bigger places.... but maybe that's something that crops up at larger venues? i usually play small to medium places and every place that has been large enough to have a sound person they have been nice, and respectful, and at least SEEMED interested in what we wanted. 'course i always say hi and try to make friends with 'em.

murfle.

BassmanPaul · #16 08-12-2010, 01:51 PM

I consider my amplifier and speakers as part of my "instrument". If I listen to my system I hear me. With a DI, even from my amp, I hear a generic bass tone. I prefer to use a good mic, strategically placed, to capture my signal. That way I sound like me again!

Paul

JimmyM · #17 08-12-2010, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BassmanPaul

I consider my amplifier and speakers as part of my "instrument". If I listen to my system I hear me. With a DI, even from my amp, I hear a generic bass tone. I prefer to use a good mic, strategically placed, to capture my signal. That way I sound like me again!

Paul

i'm starting to come back around to that line of thinking as well, paul. the next few gigs i have will tell for sure, but so far it's been hit and miss with the vt deluxe going di with no mic so i'm very tempted to go back to a mic now, even though it comes with its own set of problems.

eh, i guess everything has its problems

akaTRENT · #18 08-12-2010, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BassmanPaul

I consider my amplifier and speakers as part of my "instrument". If I listen to my system I hear me. With a DI, even from my amp, I hear a generic bass tone. I prefer to use a good mic, strategically placed, to capture my signal. That way I sound like me again!

Paul

+1

rpsands · #19 08-12-2010, 03:35 PM

Having extensively compared post-eq DI to mic, I prefer post-eq DI by a long shot. But it's challenging to get a good single mic solution on my cab and most soundguys have no idea what to do with it.

BurningSkies · #20 08-12-2010, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BassmanPaul

I consider my amplifier and speakers as part of my "instrument". If I listen to my system I hear me. With a DI, even from my amp, I hear a generic bass tone. I prefer to use a good mic, strategically placed, to capture my signal. That way I sound like me again!

Paul

I agree with this. In many cases, it's not really an option, due to a variety of things (soundman, system, etc). In that place, I'll usually choose to run DI post EQ. I have a good set of speakers that are as close to 'studio monitor/flat' as you can get, so I have a good idea of what I'm giving to the sound man.

In a distant third, I'll DI out of my bass, but then, since I run active, I can have some semblance of my tone anyway.