difference between speakers made to be put in front loaded and folded horn setups

hachi kid · #1 10-13-2011, 03:57 PM

I'm looking to replace a speaker in a old rearward folded horn cabinet. I'm looking at speakers, and some say the speakers are great for folded horn cabinets, and some say they're great for front loaded cabinets. I'm curious...what's the difference. what would happen if I used a speaker meant for "front loaded cabinets" and put it in a "folded horn cabinet". the one for front loaded cabinets are full range speakers, and the "folded horn" speakers are subwoofers...I'm wanting to run the cab full range.....just curious what would happen.

will33 · #2 10-13-2011, 04:13 PM

You need Bill.

That said, a true folded horn is not, and physically can't be a "fullrange" cabinet. Another thing the horn does is pushes the effective fs of the driver lower. So, a driver with an fs low enough to act like a good sub in a "normal" cabinet would end up being too low for the horn. There are some inbetween's that can work in either cab. That and any horn must follow the "3 octave rule". A true horn must be 1 wavelength long at the lowest frequency it will produce and a truncated horn 1/4 wavelength.

That's about the extent of my horn knowledge, all in one paragraph.

hachi kid · #3 10-13-2011, 04:19 PM

hm. well, for me to be less vague, it's an Acoustic 301 cab. I'm doing some poking around, and I found the Faital Pro 18FH500 (http://www.usspeaker.com/faital%20pro%2018FH500-1.htm). it seems right, but it says it's suitable for "bass reflex (ported) speaker cabinets including bass guitar & PA systems, etc"

wondering if this would be ok to use as a full range speaker in an Acoustic 301.

will33 · #4 10-13-2011, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hachi kid

hm. well, for me to be less vague, it's an Acoustic 301 cab. I'm doing some poking around, and I found the Faital Pro 18FH500 (Faital Pro 18FH500 Speakers - Faital Pro 18FH500 bass guitar speaker and subwoofer 18" speaker that has a lightweight neodymium magnet - Faital Pro 18FH500 1,200 watt 18" high efficiency of 99dB SPL woofer for all high power bass applications. Faital). it seems right, but it says it's suitable for "bass reflex (ported) speaker cabinets including bass guitar & PA systems, etc"

wondering if this would be ok to use as a full range speaker in an Acoustic 301.

That's not a true folded horn, different set of rules. Plenty of guys have 301's or clones of them. Try putting that in the title.

seamonkey · #5 10-13-2011, 04:30 PM

Folded horns aren't good for full range
Mids don't bounce around corners that well. Replacing the speaker won't improve this much. And you won't hear the mids until you stand far enough in front that you can get a bounced sound to your ear.

Better to use a crossover, send only the lows to the acoustic as a sub, and send the mids to midrange box, like a couple of 6" used in the fEarful design.

hachi kid · #6 10-13-2011, 04:38 PM

I'm aware the 301 isn't good for highs and such. this is why I shied away from saying it was a 301...people are gonna talk about how I need to bi-amp it and how it's not good for full range, and stuff. I'm aware of this. I would like to keep it on topic about the difference between speakers and if putting one of these speakers that are suitable for "bass reflex cabs" would be ok to put into this cab.

nothing disrespectful meant. I'm just being direct.

will33 · #7 10-13-2011, 05:09 PM

A little search found this: Replacement Speaker for an Acoustic 301 cab?

Long and short of it is, nobody hardly even makes 18's with the type of specs that would work in there anymore. Any chance of reconing the old ones or if empty, finding other suitable old 18's to have reconed?

Windreaper · #8 10-13-2011, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hachi kid

I'm aware the 301 isn't good for highs and such. this is why I shied away from saying it was a 301...people are gonna talk about how I need to bi-amp it and how it's not good for full range, and stuff. I'm aware of this. I would like to keep it on topic about the difference between speakers and if putting one of these speakers that are suitable for "bass reflex cabs" would be ok to put into this cab.

nothing disrespectful meant. I'm just being direct.

Waiting for Bill, but in the meanwhile...

Not an expert, but the 301 won't even be good for high mids no matter what kind of a speaker you use for reasons mentioned by seamonkey (the mids "won't find their way out"). You would generally want to use drivers with strong motors (low Qts, high BL Product) but that kind of depends (I think Bill uses Eminence Deltalites and other relatively "weak" drivers for horn loaded cabs, not sure how much compression he goes for though). But that is not the only thing you would need to be worried about. Not worth the trouble, seriously, you will waste your money.

You could technically mitigate the problem by building fancy curved reflectors. I've actually been toying with the idea of building a w-bin using pvc pipe sections but it would still end up being rather DIY-intensive and I digress.

hachi kid · #9 10-13-2011, 05:13 PM

that was the first thread I read. I did search it, and didn't find any answers, so I made this thread. although, I'm not trying to get recommendations on a replacement speaker for the cab. I'm trying to find out the difference between speaker made to be put in front loaded cabs, and folded horn cabs...like the title says.....

someparts · #10 10-13-2011, 05:15 PM

If you are going to run it standalone as intended, the best speaker for those is the Vega 187/188 that they came with originally. A vintage 18" will be better than a modern sub as it will retain some of the mids that Acoustic had in mind for the cab. Find an old Black Widow with the aluminum center cap or maybe an EVM-18B if you can't find a Vega. I've had both in a 301 and actually preferred the BW of those two....and you can find them in 4 ohm. Nothing beats the Vega though, so If you have the frame get it reconed. I just had two of them done this year and they sound great.

will33 · #11 10-13-2011, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windreaper

Waiting for Bill, but in the meanwhile...

Not an expert, but the 301 won't even be good for high mids no matter what kind of a speaker you use for reasons mentioned by seamonkey (the mids "won't find their way out"). You would generally want to use drivers with strong motors (low Qts, high BL Product) but that kind of depends (I think Bill uses Eminence Deltalites and other relatively "weak" drivers for horn loaded cabs, not sure how much compression he goes for though). But that is not the only thing you would need to be worried about. Not worth the trouble, seriously, you will waste your money.

You could technically mitigate the problem by building fancy curved reflectors. I've actually been toying with the idea of building a w-bin using pvc pipe sections but it would still end up being rather DIY-intensive and I digress.

Or retrofit for 15's, just to be able to buy stuff with suitable fs. If it only loads to 90hz it's like a giant midbass box.

johnk_10 · #12 10-13-2011, 07:03 PM

i've heard that a JBL 2241G sounds great in 301 cabs and they're 4 ohms.

2241G

sammyfallen · #13 10-13-2011, 07:49 PM

I recently loaded a 301 cab with an Eminence omega pro and it works great. It's still a very mid heavy cab (when a few feet away from it) that can handle everything the 370 can throw at it. I am very pleased with it and am actually getting a second omega pro to put in my other 301 to save a recently re-coned CV.

billfitzmaurice · #14 10-13-2011, 08:21 PM

You model horns just like you do direct radiator cabs. The software used is called HornResp, the time frame for becoming proficient with it is a couple of years. Give or take.

Quote:

That said, a true folded horn is not, and physically can't be a "fullrange" cabinet.

Yes, they can. My DR horns are. But they're as removed from a 301 as a Porsche 911 is from a Model T.

**B-string** · #15 10-13-2011, 08:57 PM

So which one is the Model T?

johnk_10 · #16 10-13-2011, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B-string

So which one is the Model T?

this one?

**B-string** · #17 10-13-2011, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnk_10

this one?

SHAWEET

will33 · #18 10-14-2011, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

You model horns just like you do direct radiator cabs. The software used is called HornResp, the time frame for becoming proficient with it is a couple of years. Give or take.

Yes, they can. My DR horns are. But they're as removed from a 301 as a Porsche 911 is from a Model T.

Refering to this. Lenard Audio - Education - Horns and Large Systems and Line Arrays.

Now if you've got a horn for the front wave, a horn for the back wave crossed to horn loaded hf drivers, that'd be more than one horn. Unless I'm missing something, my horn knowledge doesn't run too deep.

lbanks · #19 10-14-2011, 10:43 AM

I think the OP just wants to know 'what's the difference'. I may be wrong.

Mr. Foxen · #20 10-14-2011, 10:51 AM

Speakers good for horn loading don't need the same Xmax as ones for direct radiator cabs, as the horn loading adds sensitivity in the lows by improved coupling, rather than doing the brute force air moving by going back and forth a long way. That is one difference, I'm not an expert so thats the best I can do, cause I can totally see how frustrating it is for the OP that everyone is ignoring the question and saying the same stuff as in other threads asking a different question about the same cab.