Difference between various Bergantino models?

Bob C · #1 06-09-2010, 07:11 AM

In my 2X10 quest, I went to Bergantino's website.

Their AE line looks to have the same specs as the HS series, but with neo speakers. Aside from weight, are there any other differences?

Also there are no 2X10's shown in the HT section. Have these been replaced by the HS line? Are the HS cabs "better"?

KJung · #2 06-09-2010, 07:20 AM

Lot's of threads out there on these cabs, but it is hard to dig through them to get the info. Here's the scoop (at least IMO and IME).

The current line-up has 4 different cab series:

HT... the only two cabs currently in this series are the 112 with tweeter and the 112 without. These cabs are smooth, organic, fat. The current ER line (extended range) is slightly larger and more full in the low end than the original HT112's that you still see coming up used on the site (haven't played the current ER's). Relatively heavy.

HS (high sensitivity)... this line of cabs is an update of the discontinued Sadowsky SA line of cabs made by Bergantino. The SA cabs (210 and 410) were voiced very tightly, and designed to be used with an all tube amp (kind of modern ported two way cabs voiced to somewhat emulate a vintage sealed box). The HS cabs (210 and 410) basically are the same cabs with a driver revision that results in a bit fuller low end, and hence makes these cabs work well with solid state amps. I view this cab line as Jim's 'modern rock' sort of voicing... lots of low mid punch, smooth upper mids. Relatively heavy.

AE (Advanced Engineering)... Jim's line of neo cabs (112, 210, 410 and a soon to be released 212... already have my order in). These cabs are bright and grindy in the upper mids, a bit more extended in the low end than the HS's... more aggressive and modern. My favorites. I have a bunch of clips of the AE410 on my Youtube channel. Moderate weight.

NV (New Vintage)... old school, sealed, one way cabs, meant to do the 'vintage/classic' rock sort of thing. The 610 is described by many as a smaller, better Ampeg Fridge. The 412 must be a punch monster... never heard that one. Quite heavy/large.

Great company, great service, highly reliable.

You will see quite a few of the older HT cabs for sale other than the 112's, which are kind of a thing of their own. These are yet another different flavor, with most (HT322, HT210, etc.) being heavy, deeply voiced, and very modern/hi fi up top.

Hope that helps.

tombowlus · #3 06-09-2010, 07:22 AM

The HT line (of 10" equipped cabs) has been discontinued, but I suppose the HS line has "replaced" it. Jim does still offer the excellent HT112ER. Looking at the 2x10's, they do sound a good bit different, with the older HT line generally being more "wide" and "open" sounding and the HS line being a bit more focused and "punchy." The AE line and the HS line also sound a good bit different from each other. They both go quite deep, but the HS cabs tend to have a more full low-midrange, so they seem to have a bit more heft and fullness. The AE's are a bit more presence in the upper mids, and sound more "aggressive." The high end is similar on each, though the midrange supporting the highs is of course rather different.

Then there are the NV's and IP's...

Jim makes a number of different styles/types of cabs, with different and specific design goals. He is highly competent, though, and definitely cares about doing things "right," so pretty much any Bergantino cab is a safe bet, presuming that the particular cab's design goals are in line with what you are after.

Tom.

KJung · #4 06-09-2010, 07:23 AM

Specifically for your 210 quest...

HS210... small (only 12" deep), carpet, relatively heavy, low mid punchy, VERY smooth in the upper mids, nice sparkle up top. Great for the P Bass guys, or those that want a warm, fat sort of tone without a lot of aggressive upper mid grind.

AE210... small (about the same size as the HS), a bit lighter due to the neo speakers and thinner wood, spray on coating, rear ported (no big deal there), more deep bass than the HS, less low mids, MUCH more bright upper mids, same tweeter.... more modern, bright, aggressive.

Both are great.

KJung · #5 06-09-2010, 07:32 AM

Can you tell that I love this topic

One more oversimpified example, based on your influences in your profile:

Chris Squire... big low end, grindy bright upper mids... AE210.. great stainless steel roundwound cab

Paul McCartney... all about the fat, tight low mids.... HS210... great flatwound cab

Bob C · #6 06-09-2010, 07:36 AM

Thanks much to both of you. That info helps a lot. I've read some of it before, but now I am at the point of trying to make some decisions based on gathered information.

I'm currently using a Genz Benz 210T-XB. This is the original series, with the four or five round ports. The punch and girth is "almost there". What I think I need is two matching cabs of whatever brand. I got to looking more closely at Berg HT's after reading Tom's 2X10 shootout post.

The thing that puzzled me on Bergantino's site was that there were 1X12 HT's, but no 2X10's. Anyway, it seems that the HS series might be up my alley. A few years back, I thought I wanted a "flat response" rig. But I find my tastes changing at this time.

Can anyone comment on whether the Bergantino's are more "full range" than the Genz Benz, specifically the model I'm using?

KJung · #7 06-09-2010, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob C

Thanks much to both of you. That info helps a lot. I've read some of it before, but now I am at the point of trying to make some decisions based on gathered information.

I'm currently using a Genz Benz 210T-XB. This is the original series, with the four or five round ports. The punch and girth is "almost there". What I think I need is two matching cabs of whatever brand. I got to looking more closely at Berg HT's after reading Tom's 2X10 shootout post.

The thing that puzzled me on Bergantino's site was that there were 1X12 HT's, but no 2X10's. Anyway, it seems that the HS series might be up my alley. A few years back, I thought I wanted a "flat response" rig. But I find my tastes changing at this time.

Can anyone comment on whether the Bergantino's are more "full range" than the Genz Benz, specifically the model I'm using?

Genz makes some pretty nice cabs now (the Uber's are supposed to be very nice... haven't tried them), but IMO that isn't one of them. I found that particular cab to be voiced deeper than the drivers could handle.... farted out pretty good at even moderate volume for me. The HS210 will be might tighter and more articulate, and two of them KILL... punchy and tight... not quite as deep low end extended as that particular Genz, but smaller and much louder per watt due to the nice low mid presence and attenuated deep low end.... punchy warmth.

The other cool thing about Jim's 210's is that the thin front to back depth makes them work really well on a cart like the Kart-a-bag Super 600... strap 'em in and go.

You are correct that any single 210 is a bit lacking for anything more than a small gig. Two are great, and you get your head running at 4ohms for more power also.

Bob C · #8 06-09-2010, 07:43 AM

Kjung,

I love Chris Squire's sound, but I don't sound like him at all. I'm definitely not a flat wound guy either, even though McCartney is great.

I guess you could say the sound in my head is punchy and defined - not muddy, and not in-your-face.

I guess I need to go shopping soon. I'm trying to decide whether to look for another used GB 210T-XB, or to buy two of something else.

tombowlus · #9 06-09-2010, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob C

Can anyone comment on whether the Bergantino's are more "full range" than the Genz Benz, specifically the model I'm using?

I am not familiar with that particular Genz-Benz cab, but with regard to Bergs, those older HT cabs were very much designed to be "full-range." Jim has some home audio and sound reinforcement experience, and it really shows in those first HT models, IMHO. His cabs are still pretty good about extending both low and high (unless we are talking about the NV line, which are designed to sound more vintage), and they are all fairly balanced from top to bottom (though each cab has its own character, for sure).

Tom.

Bob C · #10 06-09-2010, 07:47 AM

Boy, I can't type fast enough. You are reading my mind on this stuff. I bought that Genz cab site-unheard when I needed something small for a quiet gig. I ended up using it all of the time, being moderately satisfied with it's capabilities.

For a long while, the plan was to save up for two Acme Low B 2's. But I eventually decided that the low efficiencey thing wouldn't work for me.

KJung · #11 06-09-2010, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob C

Kjung,

I love Chris Squire's sound, but I don't sound like him at all. I'm definitely not a flat wound guy either, even though McCartney is great.

I guess you could say the sound in my head is punchy and defined - not muddy, and not in-your-face.

I guess I need to go shopping soon. I'm trying to decide whether to look for another used GB 210T-XB, or to buy two of something else.

Those examples were oversimplified and a bit extreme. Either cab could of course be used for any type of playing with any bass... however, that is kind of the tonal direction each of the cabs takes, with the HS being more 'fat, warm, smooth, punchy' (which I associate more with rock players, PBasses, J basses with nickel roundwounds, etc.), and the AE is a bit wider down low, still pretty mid punchy in the low mids, and brighter up top (which I associate with more aggressive style instruments and players and those with more 'modern roundwound tone goals).

tombowlus · #12 06-09-2010, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob C

I guess you could say the sound in my head is punchy and defined - not muddy, and not in-your-face.

While I do think you should check out the AE line, your comments make me believe that you may find your voice with either the HS410/210 or the HT112ER.

Bob C · #13 06-09-2010, 07:48 AM

Thanks for all the input. Sadly, I have to go to work now. I look forward to continuing this thread tonight.

tombowlus · #14 06-09-2010, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob C

Boy, I can't type fast enough.

Yes, I have accused Ken of being a "typist" in the past, and I stand by that remark.

KJung · #15 06-09-2010, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob C

Boy, I can't type fast enough. You are reading my mind on this stuff. I bought that Genz cab site-unheard when I needed something small for a quiet gig. I ended up using it all of the time, being moderately satisfied with it's capabilities.

For a long while, the plan was to save up for two Acme Low B 2's. But I eventually decided that the low efficiencey thing wouldn't work for me.

The Acme's are cool, but another thing all together... super low end extended, VERY polite in the mids and up top... fat but not punchy.

KJung · #16 06-09-2010, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tombowlus

Yes, I have accused Ken of being a "typist" in the past, and I stand by that remark.

KJung · #17 06-09-2010, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tombowlus

While I do think you should check out the AE line, your comments make me believe that you may find your voice with either the HS410/210 or the HT112ER.

+1

Also +1 to your comment about the old HT's being very wide and hi fi, and quite different from the current Berg line-up.

tallboybass · #18 06-09-2010, 09:39 AM

Wow Bob, you've got "TB's finest" on the job for ya!

Bob C · #19 06-09-2010, 06:43 PM

Thanks guys. I agree the HS210 probably is closest to the sound I'm looking for. There's a dealer in St Paul, 150 miles from me. Don't know what they have in stock, but I'm due for a window shopping trip.

Am I to understand that the HT line, INCLUDING the HT210 is more "hi-fi" sounding than the HS? There are so many of degrees of grit, transparency, punch and on and on. But punch, clarity and full range are what I'm after. Not interested in doing the 15 on the bottom either. That's so 80's.

Bob C · #20 06-09-2010, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KJung

Genz makes some pretty nice cabs now (the Uber's are supposed to be very nice... haven't tried them), but IMO that isn't one of them. I found that particular cab to be voiced deeper than the drivers could handle.... farted out pretty good at even moderate volume for me.

Interesting. I'm scared to even open up this can of worms, but would replacing the drivers be a practical option? I usually discourage others from bothering to do this, but ...