'Digital Modelling', 'Simulators' and a new generation of bassists...

[scotch]

Perhaps I'm just showing my age (I'm 35), but I've been wondering of late about the long-term influence of amp simulation. There are scores of "virtual SVT" and other amp simulators available and widely used these days. Sometimes it's a digital 'model' (such as Line6 or Boss/Roland algorithms) and sometimes it's an 'amp-in-a-pedal' circuit designed to sound like a classic amplifier and cabinet (Tech21 offerings, Catalinbread SFT, etc...).

These devices are well & good and I should note that I use these products regularly myself. However, I'm also very familiar with many of the "real-deal" amps being simulated and I know what to expect from them in terms of tone and performance. I don't claim to be any sort of tone expert, but I do know how an SVT breaks-up different than a B-15 (and at different volumes) as well as having a good feel for the difference between power tube saturation and preamp clipping (each have their own merits, fwiw).

I am noticing a breed of younger players that use amp simulation religiously (and often herald their spot-on qualities). I also know some of these players have never played an SVT, for example, wide-open on a big stage (sort-of turning one up on a GC doesn't count, sorry!)

It all makes me wonder, given how simulation technology has grown ubiquitous in studios and on stages, if we have a generation of musicians and engineers that are really referencing "models" of amps rather then the real things? Not that that is necessarily a "bad" thing (whatever "bad" means), but I have had a couple of instances with other local bassists lately referencing tones that I know they have never really used. It's more of : "I'm having trouble getting that SansAmp SVT grind out of my Ampeg SVT-CL..."

Again, I use modelling software and amp-inspired tone shaping pedals all of the time (so, I suppose, I'm part of the "problem"), but does anyone else think that we may be moving into a generation that is losing an honest feel for what the classic amps really sound like?

....not ranting, just curious what folks here think!

p.s. Let's try not to turn this into a good/bad argument or a "my ______ sounds like the real deal!!!" grocery list.

[JimmyM]

you think the dog is chasing its own tail at this point? you may be right. bound to happen, i guess. we experienced the svt first because there was no sansamp. most newer bassists experience sansamp first.

the real stuff has made a huge comeback, though. a lot of newer bassists enjoy the real thing enough to keep using it. and like me, a lot are combining the technologies. people think i'm nuts, but i love using the vt deluxe with my svt and b-15 because it does svt grind things at reasonable volume levels that can't be done with a tube amp. and i will quite enjoy moving my micro vr stack on a lot of my "less important" gigs. but the tube svt/b-15 is still the standard and it's totally worth it to me to bring them, even if that micro vr looks way more attractive after a 3 hr drive, a 3 hr rehearsal and a 3 hour gig.

[Rockmusician]

I'm not a big fan of modeling. They just don't sound like the real amps. I found a sound that I like and I use it all the time. I adjust the amp to suit the room but my sound is pretty much the same. If I need to make any subtle changes during I gig, I use the controls on my bass.

[James Judson]

Nobody in the audience will notice a difference between SS, tube or modeling (most sound engineers too). Funny how the musicians hear such a huge difference that they will fight about it. I tend to like it all, for different reasons.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by James Judson

Nobody in the audience will notice a difference between SS, tube or modeling (most sound engineers too). Funny how the musicians hear such a huge difference that they will fight about it. I tend to like it all, for different reasons.

no offense, james, but **** the audience. while you are right, the lowest common demoninator audience member is so not my standard for excellence of sound and it shouldn't be anybody's. i've had to use gear i didn't like and the gigs went just fine. but i can't bring myself to lower my standards to the audience's level in my own gear just because they don't care what i use.

[Balog]

I wonder how many people can actually hear a discernable difference in a properly double blind level matched test? Serious question, there are a lot of people who swear their hand wired point to point $2500 head sounds totally different than a modeler, but then there are a lot of people who think their $100 a foot "audiophile" cables sound better too...

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Balog

I wonder how many people can actually hear a discernable difference in a properly double blind level matched test? Serious question, there are a lot of people who swear their hand wired point to point $2500 head sounds totally different than a modeler, but then there are a lot of people who think their $100 a foot "audiophile" cables sound better too...

are you the listener or the player? hey, if you don't find the difference significant enough, play a modeler or a solid state rig. but there's a way bigger reason for $2500 tube heads to exist than $100 a foot power cables, and unlike $100 a foot power cables, the differences can be heard and felt by the player, and measured by science. the listener, not so much. the player, well to me it's a giant difference in response.

[BassIan]

I strongly doubt that a well-designed DSP model and the "real thing" could be distinguished in a double-blind test. The best DSP amp/effect/system modeling is quite ingenious, but very detailed. The amplifier in question is usually heavily instrumented with measurement equipment nearly at the component level (an individual tube, MOSFET, transformer, etc). By taking enough measurements at enough points within the audio path, a very accurate transfer function can be generated for each stage. The cool thing about this is that it inherently captures complex interactions between components, and it also allows the math to extrapolate beyond the adjustment range of the physical equipment!

Of course, it's always an approximation, strictly speaking. We can do many things digitally that cannot be done with hardware.

I do a considerable amount of recording at home through my POD X3. Out of the box, it doesn't sound the way I want, but by learning the capabilities of the tool, I can get every sound I want for guitar or bass without ever requiring an amp, cabinet, microphone, or anything. There is higher end modeling available than that which comes in a Line6 POD, but the increasing presence of PODs in live rigs tells the story. It's gotten to the point where it's more than "good enough".

Expecting such a capable tool to sound good out of the box is a fatal error. Spend as much time with one tone as you spend with one amplifier, and you'll see the rewards.

All that said, I still always play through a "real" amplifier live, with a series of analog effects. Why? It's fun to try different hardware, and there is a psychological mojo that goes with using the actual equipment. However, I would be just as happy with my tone by using a POD and in-ear monitors.

[Balog]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

are you the listener or the player? hey, if you don't find the difference significant enough, play a modeler or a solid state rig. but there's a way bigger reason for $2500 tube heads to exist than $100 a foot power cables, and unlike $100 a foot power cables, the differences can be heard and felt by the player, and measured by science. the listener, not so much. the player, well to me it's a giant difference in response.

I'm honestly interested if there are documented tests measuring both modelers and "real" amps and comparing them from a scientific stand point. Or any properly conducted double blind listening tests. I don't have a dog in this fight either way, I just like real, objective data.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Balog

I'm honestly interested if there are documented tests measuring both modelers and "real" amps and comparing them from a scientific stand point. Or any properly conducted double blind listening tests. I don't have a dog in this fight either way, I just like real, objective data.

i think the modelers do an excellent job. but you don't need science to be able to know that you can feel the difference between the response of an svt on a gig vs a ss model of an svt when you play it, although there are things about its response that can be measured.

if i were you, i'd go look up issue 4 of tom bowlus' bass gear mag. they dissected a 74 svt, a 66 b-15n, and a micro vr in the same issue. maybe that'll give you a little insight as to what i'm talking about.

available for free online... www.bassgearmag.com

[dj150888]

Originally Posted by scotch

does anyone else think that we may be moving into a generation that is losing an honest feel for what the classic amps really sound like?

I've enjoyed using both, they both have seperate roles for me, but does it matter if a generation lose the feel for classic amps? There will always be people who enjoy tone chasing, if the classic amps are worth the other sacrifices to people, they'll continue to buy them, if they're not, they won't. If the feel for the tone is lost, its because people felt that other things were superior. Nothing wrong with moving on.

[Jazz Ad]

Is it bad also that most people have never actually track-to-track flanged a tape record or manually edited a reel tape?

[scotch]

I think JimmyM is hitting the nail on the head. Can a listener always hear a difference? Probably not. But I know I can feel the difference when I'm playing! That connection to the amp also informs how I play.

I've noticed it more when I use my PodX3 on guitar. I can dial in sounds that come across remarkably like a real amp (as noted above, the presets generally suck & you really need to learn how to program sounds on it), but they jut don't 'feel' like playing through an amp - even considering mic'ing and monitoring conditions (I've spent plenty of time in the studio using both modelling technology and real amps with microphones).
The X3 gives me the same exact tone everytime it hit it with a note. A real tube guitar amp reacts differently depending on how warmed up it is, or just how temperamental it is that day. That's when the magic happens & you get inspired to play in different ways! (At least for me, anyway!)

Back on topic though (I was hoping this wasn't going to be another real vs digital thread), do you guys think that many bassists (and guitarists for that matter) are going to lose sight of the 'original' tones and response of the classic amplifiers? Or, perhaps, will the classic amps continue to occupy enough of the market where people will get a chance to keep using them?

[scotch]

Originally Posted by Jazz Ad

Is it bad also that most people have never actually track-to-track flanged a tape record or manually edited a reel tape?

Right! Or the way it used to take 7 people to perform a mix at the console. It's something todays musicians probably aren't even aware of!

On the other hand, so much more creative potential has opened up with mix automation...

[scotch]

Originally Posted by dj150888

I've enjoyed using both, they both have seperate roles for me, but does it matter if a generation lose the feel for classic amps? There will always be people who enjoy tone chasing, if the classic amps are worth the other sacrifices to people, they'll continue to buy them, if they're not, they won't. If the feel for the tone is lost, its because people felt that other things were superior. Nothing wrong with moving on.

Good response. I think you're right- only time will tell if the classic amps matter, or whether players will move on.

If recent trends are any indication- there is still a devoted market for classic amps (from SVT and B-15 heritage re-issues to all new tube amps inspired by the classics).

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by scotch

Back on topic though (I was hoping this wasn't going to be another real vs digital thread), do you guys think that many bassists (and guitarists for that matter) are going to lose sight of the 'original' tones and response of the classic amplifiers? Or, perhaps, will the classic amps continue to occupy enough of the market where people will get a chance to keep using them?

the latter is the way more likely scenario. modeling has not stopped demand for tube amps in the least. i think there is probably more demand for them now than ever. i wouldn't dream of being a studio cat in nashville and not owning a b-15 these days, whereas 10 years ago i would have shown up with a bass and tube pre, and maybe not even the tube pre.

[Johnny Crab]

Some WILL miss the tube experience but I doubt it will go away...but I said that about cassette tapes too. As demand goes down, prices should go up.

The X3 gives me the same exact tone everytime I hit it with a note. A real tube guitar amp reacts differently depending on how warmed up it is, or just how temperamental it is that day.

That is why a SIM is preferred at this point.

15 years with an early 70's SVT + two 8x10's that I had to self-maintain was enough.
Yes, there were nights where you could turn it past 9:30 or 10 o'clock and settings were such that your bass seemed to "play itself". Tube magic.

[JimmyM]

demand for tube bass amps is probably higher now than it's ever been, though. i see WAY WAY WAY more bass players in all genres using tube amps than i ever have.

[okcrum]

Originally Posted by Jazz Ad

Is it bad also that most people have never actually track-to-track flanged a tape record or manually edited a reel tape?

If there's something really good-sounding in a given technology, and you manage to lose that in translating that sound to a new and presumably more convenient technology, then yeah, that's a Massive Fail.

Loss of appreciation for the fact that certain things were/are a total PITA isn't necessarily a failure at all, unless it causes people to all take a more restrictive approach to doing things, like production, or overlay tracks.

I've often wondered why the default SVT model sounds to me like "SVT bursting into flame" rather than one of the many other sounds it can do. No wonder people think it's a one trick pony.

[christw]

I grew up (both musically and chronologically) in the modeling amp generation. I never liked them although most of my early experience was with the low end or "economic" modelers. I do go with what sounds good, no what the purists say and still ended up with the "real deal" amps. In my experience, Tech 21 is the only brand that I've really dug what they do with modeling. My Bass VT and my brother's guitar amp are good enough for me in a mix that I could justify buying them. Otherwise, I'll take the old lead heads.

Originally Posted by okcrum

I've often wondered why the default SVT model sounds to me like "SVT bursting into flame" rather than one of the many other sounds it can do. No wonder people think it's a one trick pony.

No joke! I was surprised by how clean my SVT-II is! I was misled by modeling!