"Dirty Johnny", "OCD Harry" and "All Day Joe"

[Larry Hartke]

Here’s a thread that’s sure to elicit some interesting responses. Because I’m me I have to be careful not to violate any talkbass commercial user’s policies and get myself bounced out of here. But I think this one will be okay. Now we have all read, heard about or experienced (me included) rude behavior by music store employees and yes of course this does happen, no doubt, and we all know that. Where there are people there will always be problems and it doesn’t matter what business you’re in either!

But what I would like to talk about here is from the other side of the counter. Over the last year since opening Hartke’s 48th Street Bass Lounge in NYC for the first time in the 26 years that I’ve been a manufacturer I've had the opportunity to observe and interact with customers close up over an extended period of time. And while the large, large, majority of customers are just great there are always a few that will make you scratch your head…or tear your hair out. The saying goes “the customer is always right” but I can tell you that there are exceptions to that rule.

Now 48th Street in NYC is a very international cliental so you do get a world perspective with customers visiting from virtually every country on earth. This is of course true for all the dealers on 48th Street.

I would like to know some of what you think a customer has the right to expect from a dealer and what a dealer has a right to expect from a customer. And I’d like to hear from both you guys who are customers and maybe some of you who have worked in music stores. The whole purpose of this is so that there might be a greater understanding of the whole dealer / customer relationship and hell I might even learn how some of you have dealt with specific situations while working in a music store.

Let’s try not to make this a thread about how this dealer or that salesman screwed you or was rude or ripped you off., That’s another story that we can discuss, but right now I’m talking about how the customer should behave in a music store.

I’ll start it off with just a couple of things that make me crazy and then I’d like to hear from you guys that are music store customers and also you guys that have worked in music stores because this affects us all and the ultimate experience we have together.

1-"Dirty Johnny”...there are customers that come in with hands so dirty and greasy that they can turn a brand new black Rickenbacker bass into a disgusting mess in about one minute…then of course they want to try ten other basses. Some of them actually bring food into the store in a bag and start munching right there when you’re not watching. Being a neat freak I’m forever polishing and tuning basses when I’m at the store because I don’t want the next customer to suffer. This is something that happens a real lot and is probably number one on my list.

What would you do with “Dirty Johnny”?

2-“OCD Harry”…Harry touches everything he can get his hands on…there are customers and especially their friends waiting for them that have to turn every knob on every amplifier in the place, not the ones they are trying out but everything in sight. They make shapes and patterns on the graphic EQ’s. They turn the knobs all the way up or all the way down or just play with them all along the rows of amplifiers for no explainable reason.

What would you do with "OCD Harry"?

3-“All Day Joe”…customers that tie up a bass and or an amplifier for an extended period of time when others would like to try them out. There are guys that will literally play for hours if you will let them.

What’s a proper and polite amount of time for "All Day Joe" to check out gear?

Okay that’s just a few…now what say you?

[colcifer]

1- Make it REAL clear that food is unacceptable right when they come through the door and encourage proper hygiene by keeping hand sanitizer and instructions to use it at all playing hot-spots.

1- Being NYC I've no doubt this is a nice bit of madness but there might be a method to it (anyone else ever notice Claudius got most of the great lines?). Unless they're getting in the way of other customers I'd let this one go seeing as most people will be fiddling with the controls no matter how they're set.

2- The proper and polite amount of time is however long it take a queue to form.

best,
c

[project_c]

There's a music store in London I recently went to that has a good solution to some of these problems. They have 3 very small demo booths inside the store. The rooms are just very small enclosed spaces behind glass doors, and they have a basic but good selection of demo amps and combo's inside the rooms, which keeps all the stock on the shop floor from being abused. If a customer wants to try a bass, they have to ask an assistant to get the bass for them, and open a demo room for them. The demo rooms provide a bit of sound proofing (not much, but enough so that A: the customer feels like he's in private, and B: the rest of the shop staff and customers are not suffering because of the noise). Because there are a limited number of rooms, the customers are asked to finish up if others are waiting to try gear - this is a good solution to deal with 'all day joe'.
the dirt problem could be fixed by putting hand gel in the demo booths, with a polite but visible notice saying 'please make sure your hands are clean before trying equipment'.
the ocd guys - i have no idea how you solve this one, apart from using violence.

I visited the 48th St store just a few days ago and there's a lot of nice stuff there. I think there's definitely room there for some small demo booths with a bit of rearranging. I saw that you had an area in the lower part of the store which had some amazing basses on the wall - perhaps that area could be put to better use by splitting it in half and making 2 demo booths. It could be a good way to regulate and keep an eye on what gets played and messed around with.

[JimmyM]

i am reminded of the words of the great late 20th century philosopher butt-head, who once said, "customers suck." don't know what to tell you, though. today's shnurrer could be tomorrow's customer.

dirty johnny, eh? you wouldn't happen to know jackie the jokeman martling, do you?

[Freddels]

For Dirty Johnny . . . you might want to have a store policy that everyone must wash their hands before trying any instruments. You would need a place for them to do that. Also, a no food in the store policy would be good. If this person knows that they have dirt and grease on their hands and they insist on marking up brand new instruments I would think this could be an intentional criminal act of destruction of property. What would a high end clothier do if this person was in their store and intentionally touching all the merchandise and ruining it?

For All Day Joe . . . the sound booths are a good idea. If not that, then a posted store policy of limiting a customer to 15 minutes (or whatever time limit you wanted). You could also put a timer on the power to the amps (just like a light switch timer). When someone wants to try something they need to ask for assistance and a store employee would set the timer and therefore turn the power to the amps.

For OCD Harry . . . well that's tough one. Probably have the staff on the look out for this type and when they see them, try to distract them with other shiny objects.

[SurferJoe46]

I will prolly never be fortunate enough to visit your store - it sounds very nice.

But I am not a high-roller for expensive gear and boutique bases nor do I live close enough to NYC, so I'll just say that even though the retailer is always gonna have to eat any damage to the gear, I'd put up signs for "CUSTOMER'S DECORUM RULES" and see where that went.

NO FOOD
NO BELT BUCKLES
NO DIRTY HANDS

Jacking the knobs around and stuff like that is very hard to monitor - but stealing batteries, knobs and fuses should be punished with calling the cops and pressing charges - every time, no grace period or second chances.

I think the solo rooms are a good idea, but they eat floor space and make it easier for someone to damage the gear out of sight of the general public and salespersons. So I vote them out.

It's too bad the short-bus stops and lets those OCDs out and on the streets and they then wander into your store.

Perhaps an UNDER 18 EXCLUSION rule might be a good idea too.

I wouldn't be a retailer if you gave me all your money, Mr. Hartke.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by SurferJoe46

I wouldn't be a retailer if you gave me all your money, Mr. Hartke.

i would. ready to start an orlando branch and give bass central a run for its money?

[sloasdaylight]

Dirty Johnny - Like others have said, no food allowed in stores period is a good idea. Maybe hand sanitizer around the instruments, but frankly I think that's not a good idea cause I'm opposed to hand sanitizer in the first place.

OCD Harry - This guy I really don't think there's anything you can do to keep this from happening without having a sales rep with every customer that walks through the door, and that's not cost effective.

All Day Joe - This guy is hard, cause I have been this guy before. I think that there comes a point when enough is enough. Usually the All Day Joes are guys who wont buy anyways, so maybe if you came out and asked them politely if they were going to buy the instrument, and if not, get around to asking them to set it down and maybe give other people the chance to play it.

I second what SurferJoe above me said. I would never be a retailer, so best of luck to you.

[TMacATK]

Originally Posted by SurferJoe46

Perhaps an UNDER 18 EXCLUSION rule might be a good idea too.

I realize it's not the case with most teenagers you find in Guitar Center, but when I was 17 I had two grand saved from working at Starbucks to buy a nice acoustic guitar. Had some retailer turned his nose at me rather than giving me the benefit of the doubt, I would have taken my business elsewhere. It makes me uncomfortable as a customer to try out equipment in an environment where retailers are looking over my shoulder because their demeanor oozes judgment and distrust.

What retailers have to find is a balance between seeming over-protective of their instruments and passive-aggressive toward customers (standing over their shoulder, putting timers on their amplifiers, putting signs on instruments that prohibit touching without "help") and not looking out enough for the equipment.

[MIJ-VI]

Originally Posted by SurferJoe46

I will prolly never be fortunate enough to visit your store - it sounds very nice.

But I am not a high-roller for expensive gear and boutique bases nor do I live close enough to NYC, so I'll just say that even though the retailer is always gonna have to eat any damage to the gear, I'd put up signs for "CUSTOMER'S DECORUM RULES" and see where that went.

NO FOOD
NO BELT BUCKLES
NO DIRTY HANDS

Jacking the knobs around and stuff like that is very hard to monitor - but stealing batteries, knobs and fuses should be punished with calling the cops and pressing charges - every time, no grace period or second chances.

I think the solo rooms are a good idea, but they eat floor space and make it easier for someone to damage the gear out of sight of the general public and salespersons. So I vote them out.

It's too bad the short-bus stops and lets those OCDs out and on the streets and they then wander into your store.

Perhaps an UNDER 18 EXCLUSION rule might be a good idea too.

I wouldn't be a retailer if you gave me all your money, Mr. Hartke.

[KramerBassFan]

Originally Posted by SurferJoe46

Perhaps an UNDER 18 EXCLUSION rule might be a good idea too.

I will say, often the under 18 kids are better than the over 18 kids.... The kid who its his first time seeing a Ric in person, versus the washed up metal-er who destroyed numerous 60's Fenders in his time.

[jkramer5]

I don't know how practical these are but here goes:

For dirty johnny a tube of "Wipes" baby wipes, hand wipes whatever they're called and a trash can close by. And no food in the store, that's a no brainer to me.


ODC Harry, dub one employee "It" for the day. it's part of their daily routine to make a knob and setting check every 15/30 mins say. If they are lax you have someone to bitch at that you can control, your employee.

All day Joe, mmm that's a hard one. How about the suggestion above, if a line is forming, if other potential customers are waiting to demo something, having a worker politely ask joe to un-ass the seat and give someone else a try. It's your store, you are certainly allowed to make such a request and not seem like a jerk. I certainly would be willing to wait if I were truly interested in making a purchase that day.

[MIJ-VI]

+1 on no discrimination by age.

The products of good and bad parenting come in all age brackets.

[colcifer]

I like jkramer5's OCD Harry idea.

[Larry Hartke]

Well there is of course no food allowed in the store but this isn't an airport and we don't go through peoples backpacks unless there's a reason and that's on the way out through security.

We do have hand sanitizer but "Dirty Johnny" is going to be the last one to use it...trust me on that one! He doesn't know he's Dirty Johnny. And he'd be very unhappy to find out he is, but I might just have to tell him before he gets too far. Then I'll be the jerk, but that's life.

Sound booths aren't practical because they do eat up retail space (very costly in Times Square). I do have a fairly nice glassed in area, but we are dealing with bass and unless you have a very big room it chokes frequencies and you really can't check out big rigs properly. Everything sounds better in the big room of course.

Surfer Joe I think I will post a policy as you suggested and see how that works. Thank you! At least I'll have something to point to when Dirty Johnny asks to try that next black Sadowsky.

Jimmy only you would know where "Dirty Johhny" came from and yes Jackie is a real good friend. I'll be out at "Jokeland" tomorrow! I love the guys at Bass Central, pick somewhere else for a new location. I can't beat them at their own game...they're way too sharp!

Theft is a whole other story (people try) but except for knobs and small stuff it's pretty impossible to get anything out of that store.

[NateS]

Originally Posted by jkramer5

I don't know how practical these are but here goes:

For dirty johnny a tube of "Wipes" baby wipes, hand wipes whatever they're called and a trash can close by. And no food in the store, that's a no brainer to me.


ODC Harry, dub one employee "It" for the day. it's part of their daily routine to make a knob and setting check every 15/30 mins say. If they are lax you have someone to bitch at that you can control, your employee.

All day Joe, mmm that's a hard one. How about the suggestion above, if a line is forming, if other potential customers are waiting to demo something, having a worker politely ask joe to un-ass the seat and give someone else a try. It's your store, you are certainly allowed to make such a request and not seem like a jerk. I certainly would be willing to wait if I were truly interested in making a purchase that day.

Originally Posted by MIJ-VI

+1 on no discrimination by age.

The products of good and bad parenting come in all age brackets.

+1

[naturalkinds]

Every high-end music store I have been to has been incredibly uncomfortable to try stuff out in -- high pressure, judgmental, snippety -- so much so that I prefer to buy things site unseen online, and then just sell them if they don't work out.

I think you have to do your best to make music stores a comfortable place for people to hang out and try stuff out, even if people are dirtying your gear. Otherwise, folks like me get turned off, and end up buying from Musicians' Friend for cheaper than you could sell anyway. Plus, you never know when that dirty guy's actually got the coin to buy stuff.

In my opinion, a real music store has to offer more than just expertise and selection; it's got to offer a comfortable environment for players of all talents and social persuasions to try your stuff out. Otherwise, close your doors and become a warehouse.

[Freddels]

Originally Posted by Larry Hartke

pick somewhere else for a new location.

Well, here in MA, we really don't have any good places anymore. All we have are the GC's which are limited. I would vote for a decent music store here.

[Larry Hartke]

Naturalkinds,

I wouldn't want you to get the wrong impression, the bass lounge is anything but a stuffy "high end" place where people watch over you and I make sure of that. There are 160 basses on display and anybody can try anyone of them. I don't like that kind of stuffy atmosphere either. As I say most customers are great, it's just those few that aren't digging themselves that I'm looking for a polite way to deal with and not insult them. The playing field is very level in this industry these days and you will not get gear online cheaper. We as others do have a guaranteed lowest price policy.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Larry Hartke

Jimmy only you would know where "Dirty Johhny" came from and yes Jackie is a real good friend. I'll be out at "Jokeland" tomorrow! I love the guys at Bass Central, pick somewhere else for a new location. I can't beat them at their own game...they're way too sharp!

ya, beaver and dave are great guys. used to take lessons off dave and i believe i indirectly gave dave the idea to start it...long story so i'll spare you the details. you're right...they pretty much invented the bass specialty store...doggone if it hasn't worked out great for them.

used to exchange emails a couple years ago with jackie. he invited me to sit in on "jackie's joke hunt" (joke hunt, get it???? HO HO HO HAAA!) once but i had to cancel. i still bum out thinking about that. i still listen to the joke hunt every week, though. great stuff!

well good luck solving your problem. it's a tough one, bro.