Discuss!

faceinbass · #1 03-03-2011, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faceinbass

I asked Aspen Pitman once why tubes amps were louder than SS amps (of equal power ratings). He explained it by saying that tubes have a reserve of power in the amp ready to blow each time you hit a note.. ss amps must pull the power from the wall each time you hit a note. Made sense to me.

I am quoting myself here but would like some input.. your thoughts?

from this thread..
50w-100w Valve Owners Thread

BurningSkies · #2 03-03-2011, 09:32 AM

Basically he told you what was akin to:

"Tooobs are MAGIC!"

christw · #3 03-03-2011, 09:41 AM

A 300w rated tube amp will provide the same clean 300w of power that an SS amp will. However, what's being addressed here is pushing the amps past that zone. It's just that the tubes have different clipping characteristics. We tolerate tube amp grind (squeezing that last little bit of volume out) where we do not tolerate SS clipping.

billfitzmaurice · #4 03-03-2011, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faceinbass

I am quoting myself here but would like some input.. your thoughts?

from this thread..
50w-100w Valve Owners Thread

Life is too short, and this topic is far too regularly raised. As for the quote from Pitman, that's one of the silliest notions I've ever seen. As an audio engineer he'd make a fine plumber.

i_got_a_mohawk · #5 03-03-2011, 09:49 AM

+1 utter tripe

BassmanPaul · #6 03-03-2011, 10:24 AM

+1 AND without the onions!

JimmyM · #7 03-03-2011, 10:55 AM

mmmm...tripe!

Buster Brown · #8 03-03-2011, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

Life is too short, and this topic is far too regularly raised. As for the quote from Pitman, that's one of the silliest notions I've ever seen. As an audio engineer he'd make a fine plumber.

Absolutely priceless!

JimmyM · #9 03-03-2011, 10:58 AM

in all seriousness, so much of what that pittman guy has said is crap that i don't really believe a word he says. i know nothing about the engineering behind it, but i know enough to know that pittman said most of what he said in order to sell more tubes.

faceinbass · #10 03-03-2011, 11:16 AM

Interesting results. And I am not trying to raise a "which is better" scenario.. I know better than that.

I just remembered him saying that at a TapeOP con. when I asked him why toob watts seemed louder that ss watts.

& Hey, at least he didn't mention the fragile harmonics dying in the crystal lattice of a SS amp.

Are there any real engineers in here that care to comment?

faceinbass · #11 03-03-2011, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BurningSkies

Basically he told you what was akin to:

"Tooobs are MAGIC!"

I kind of disagree with you here.. its not THAT simple.

Toobs are valves after all. Valves open and shut to control flow. So here is another metaphor.. & I wonder if his thinking were also along these lines...

Imagine 2 water hoses:

The A hose is turned on at the house but has a sprayer (valve) at the business end that you use to regulate flow and do your spraying.

The B hose is a length of hose that is only turned on and off at the end that is connected to the house (the end opposite from where you are spraying).

Which would get the water to where you want it to go the fastest and with the most initial (usable) pressure?

Again, I AM NOT TRYING TO BAIT OR ARGUE.. I am just curious. Rock on. Play what you like. Opinions are like ***holes, etc.

billfitzmaurice · #12 03-03-2011, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faceinbass

Are there any real engineers in here that care to comment?

Look at my byline.

BurningSkies · #13 03-03-2011, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faceinbass

I kind of disagree with you here.. its not THAT simple.

Toobs are valves after all. Valves open and shut to control flow. So here is another metaphor.. & I wonder if his thinking were also along these lines...

Imagine 2 water hoses:

The A hose is turned on at the house but has a sprayer (valve) at the business end that you use to regulate flow and do your spraying.

The B hose is a length of hose that is only turned on and off at the end that is connected to the house (the end opposite from where you are spraying).

Which would get the water to where you want it to go the fastest and with the most initial (usable) pressure?

Again, I AM NOT TRYING TO BAIT OR ARGUE.. I am just curious. Rock on. Play what you like. Onions are like ***holes, etc.

You bought into the internet being a series of tubes as well, huh?

JimmyM · #14 03-03-2011, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faceinbass

I kind of disagree with you here.. its not THAT simple.

Toobs are valves after all. Valves open and shut to control flow. So here is another metaphor.. & I wonder if his thinking were also along these lines...

Imagine 2 water hoses:

The A hose is turned on at the house but has a sprayer (valve) at the business end that you use to regulate flow and do your spraying.

The B hose is a length of hose that is only turned on and off at the end that is connected to the house (the end opposite from where you are spraying).

Which would get the water to where you want it to go the fastest and with the most initial (usable) pressure?

Again, I AM NOT TRYING TO BAIT OR ARGUE.. I am just curious. Rock on. Play what you like. Opinions are like ***holes, etc.

what do water hoses have to do with amps? there is absolutely no connection between how a water hose works and an amp works. you can't even mix water with amps...if you do, you'll get electrocuted.

faceinbass · #15 03-03-2011, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

Look at my byline.

ok, missed that. But all you did was call him a plumber.

fwiw I met the guy once and he was really nice to talk with. Super friendly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyM

what do water hoses have to do with amps? there is absolutely no connection between how a water hose works and an amp works. you can't even mix water with amps...if you do, you'll get electrocuted.

Electrons flow. Water flows.
I am not the first person to use water as an analogy for electronics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analogy

billfitzmaurice · #16 03-03-2011, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faceinbass

I kind of disagree with you here.. its not THAT simple.

Toobs are valves after all.

So are transistors.

Quote:

I wonder if his thinking were also along these lines..

His 'thinking' was totally flawed, because both tubes and SS draw their power primarily from their power supply capacitor storage banks, not from the wall. What the wall does is to draw current to replenish those capacitors. And because SS amps have far lower voltage supplies they also can have far higher capacitive storage capacity, so the exact opposite of what he said is usually the case. Much of what gives tubes their character is their relatively 'soft' power supplies; one reason why many players, especially guitar players, prefer tube versus SS rectification is that tube rectification is softer.

Quote:

I met the guy once and he was really nice to talk with. Super friendly.

Friendly doesn't equate with competent.

faceinbass · #17 03-03-2011, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

Friendly doesn't equate with competent.

Never implied that it did.

& Thanks for the explanation.

bobcruz · #18 03-03-2011, 12:35 PM

To the O.P., I brought up a similar comment made by a physicist friend of mine in a different thread a couple years ago. He told me that the output transformers in tube amps also store many joules of energy and could provide peak wattage of 2 or 3 times the tube amp's RMS power for an instant. That brought a lot of laughs from the experts here. Apparently, tube amps' "extra loudness" comes only from the added harmonic content, that is, distortion, in regions that our ears like and perceive as extra volume.

dincz · #19 03-03-2011, 12:52 PM

This thread hasn't touched on alien abduction yet.

aborgman · #20 03-03-2011, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faceinbass

Interesting results. And I am not trying to raise a "which is better" scenario.. I know better than that.

I just remembered him saying that at a TapeOP con. when I asked him why toob watts seemed louder that ss watts.

& Hey, at least he didn't mention the fragile harmonics dying in the crystal lattice of a SS amp.

Are there any real engineers in here that care to comment?

Yeah... what he said is idiotic crap.

(B.S.E. University of Michigan, 1998)