Ditching a fridge for a 610?

[AlexanderB]

The Ampeg SVT-810 is not very loud considering its size and it is also limited in terms of clean, deep bass output. The tone sure works for most users but for me I expect such a big cab to deliver lots of output and deep bass, if needed.

That said, I went with two SVT-410HLF + one SVT-210HE (the larger, vented cab that is now discontinued).
With the amp I use, one 410 + the 210 will go louder and much deeper (if needed) than the fridge and is tall enough so I can hear myself well. I have never gigged both 410s but I believe it would be a lot of fun...

It is also much easier for me to load and move this setup than the 810. (In Europe we do not generally have gas-guzzling trucks and vans - most hobby/part time musicians use a station wagon for transporting their gear. In that case the "tilt and push" fridge method makes less sense than if you load the gear on a F150.)

And I believe the combined weight is lower than the 810.
If I had the fridge I would still need a smaller cab (like the 210) for small gigs.

[CL400Peavey]

Originally Posted by Tuned

Then why have the two at the bottom? Why not just elevate a 6x10? I use a 4x10 on a stool and I never run out of power no matter how loud my bands get. The bottom four 10s just make the rest of the band play louder.

Back to the OP, Ampeg 8x10's are 800W and 102dB sensitive, modern 4x10's are 800W and 105dB sensitive. The 4x10 is already louder than your 8x10, and since the sound is coming from a smaller area it's more focused directly in front, so you feel more with less overall output (band stays quieter). You probably don't need the 2x10, and a 4 ohm 4x10 would load your amp better. Two 8 ohm 2x10's are becoming a more popular option it seems, since one 2x10 will suit many situations.

There is so much I disagree with in this post.

First and foremost, those type of specs are highly suspect. Power handling specs are thermal, and have no bearing on when a cab will fart out. 800 watt 410? try more like 400 before the cab runs out of gas. Sensitivity specs that are posted with out a frequency range or a roll off point are useless. 105 db/w/m? at what narrow frequency band? What is the sensitivity at 40 hz? The 810 will also have better dispersion than the 410, so you end up hearing yourself better at a lower volume than the 410. A lot of players beam all their sound down the center of the bar with a 410, and think they are not so loud off axis.

I agree that two 210's is becoming a popular option. Stacking two of them vertically has a big dispersion gain over a standard cube 410. Better dispersion means you can be heard better through out the room. Does it mean you dont need to be louder? That is subjective.

The benefit to the 610 or 810 is that you have increased your displacement. Depending on the tone you want to get, and the volume you want it at, the extra displacement may be needed. There is no physical way less displacement ends up with more low end than a cab with greater displacement. Needing or wanting that is of course subjective.

[georgestrings]

Originally Posted by Tuned

Then why have the two at the bottom? Why not just elevate a 6x10?

I use a 4x10 on a stool and I never run out of power no matter how loud my bands get. The bottom four 10s just make the rest of the band play louder.

Simple - why bring a 610, then find/bring something to elevate it on, when I can just use an 810??? Also, I don't like the loss of felt low end I experience from raising a cab off the ground, and definitely wouldn't *plan* on elevating a 610 as a matter of routine...

As for the 2nd part - I'm glad a 410 is more than loud enough *for you* - it isn't for me... and the part about the bottom four 10s "making the band play louder" is rediculous... I play just loud enough to be able to hear myself along with the drums and guitars - it's called balancing out your sound on stage...


- georgestrings

[whatisacup]

How does the NV610 compre to other 610's on the market in terms of volume and ability to cut through such as:

SVT610
SWR 610
other ported 610's

or the Avatar 410 + 210 I had the idea of

[dukeisdog]

Originally Posted by whatisacup

How does the NV610 compre to other 610's on the market in terms of volume and ability to cut through such as:

SVT610
SWR 610
other ported 610's

or the Avatar 410 + 210 I had the idea of

Check out the Boogie 6X10!!

[Tuned]

Originally Posted by CL400Peavey

There is so much I disagree with in this post.

First and foremost, those type of specs are highly suspect. Power handling specs are thermal, and have no bearing on when a cab will fart out. 800 watt 410? try more like 400 before the cab runs out of gas. Sensitivity specs that are posted with out a frequency range or a roll off point are useless. 105 db/w/m? at what narrow frequency band? What is the sensitivity at 40 hz? The 810 will also have better dispersion than the 410, so you end up hearing yourself better at a lower volume than the 410. A lot of players beam all their sound down the center of the bar with a 410, and think they are not so loud off axis.

We definitely disagree, nothing personal. Say what you will about cab specs, we're still comparing apples and apples. PA speakers have most definitely advanced in power handling since the Ampeg 810 was introduced, back then a 15" PA speaker would be rated at 150W, now they handle 1000+W. Stands to reason bass speakers would be able to handle twice the power in the same period of advancement. I know for a fact my SWR Goliath III 4x10 handles more than 400W RMS because I've pushed it past that all night before several times.

And you've got the dispersion issue completely backwards. The key is the ratio between how much bass you hear compared to how much the rest of the band and room hears, and the only way to improve that is with proximity effect. When the sound is being produced over a wider area, the more bass is just blowing by and not rattling your ribcage, and the ratio approaches 1:1. If everyone else hears as much bass as you do, they're going to turn up every time, then you need more, and a volume battle ensues.

If you produce the same amount of volume from a smaller area and it's all focused at your torso, you'll find it's too much and you turn down. You get a much higher ratio, more like you hear 3x as much as everyone else. If when you need to project more across the stage or into the room, simply step away from the cab or lower it towards the floor and turn up. Flooding the room is easy, avoiding flooding is the hard part, and 8x10's can't do it, period.

A sealed cab sucks at deep bass no matter how many drivers you put in it, so having it on the floor is a moot issue. A vented cab on a stool easily puts out as much low end as a comparable sealed cab on the floor.

And the beaming frequency of a 10" driver is 1658Hz ( http://greenboy.us/fEARful/frequencytables.htm ), not much bass guitar tone going on above 1kHz, so your beaming argument is pretty hard to believe. Ampeg 8x10's might seem to beam less because all Ampeg cabs are flabby and undefined by comparison, not just 8x10's.

The manager at a local venue (also a bassist) that has a house Ampeg 8x10 cab asks me to leave my cab behind when he's playing the day after because even he hates the 8x10 compared to my 4x10, both on stage and out front. I assume you simply haven't experienced the effect for yourself, because it's night-and-day better.

Not to mention, who would haul around a 16x10 if it wasn't any louder than an 8x10? Ampeg 8x10's are no louder than 4x10's by SWR, GK, even Traynor. Why break your back?

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Tuned

And the beaming frequency of a 10" driver is 1650Hz, not much bass guitar tone going on above 1kHz, so your beaming argument is pretty hard to believe. Ampeg 8x10's might seem to beam less because all Ampeg cabs are flabby and undefined by comparison, not just 8x10's.

The manager at a local venue (also a bassist) that has a house Ampeg 8x10 cab asks me to leave my cab behind when he's playing the day after because even he hates the 8x10 compared to my 4x10, both on stage and out front. I assume you simply haven't experienced the effect for yourself, because it's night-and-day better.

Not to mention, who would haul around a 16x10 if it wasn't any louder than an 8x10? Ampeg 8x10's are no louder than 4x10's by SWR, GK, even Traynor. Why break your back?

Right, that's why so many bass players use Ampeg cabs...because they're flabby and undefined and have no output.



I can make a case for you saying that about some of the Ampeg cabs made from 2000-2006. But I have to think that those are the only Ampeg cabs you've used. Nothing at all undefined about my tone through Ampeg cabs, thank you very much.

[CL400Peavey]

Originally Posted by Tuned

We definitely disagree, nothing personal. Say what you will about cab specs, we're still comparing apples and apples.

this much we agree.

Originally Posted by Tuned

PA speakers have most definitely advanced in power handling since the Ampeg 810 was introduced, back then a 15" PA speaker would be rated at 150W, now they handle 1000+W. Stands to reason bass speakers would be able to handle twice the power in the same period of advancement.

All speakers are a balance of specs, what specs changed to increase power handling? Sensitivity, frequency response? Yes there are advancements, but there is no magic bullet to beating physics.

Originally Posted by Tuned

I know for a fact my SWR Goliath III 4x10 handles more than 400W RMS because I've pushed it past that all night before several times.

I do not doubt you push your cab hard. Not all manufacturer's specs are equal though.

Originally Posted by Tuned

And you've got the dispersion issue completely backwards. The key is the ratio between how much bass you hear compared to how much the rest of the band and room hears, and the only way to improve that is with proximity effect. When the sound is being produced over a wider area, the more bass is just blowing by and not rattling your ribcage, and the ratio approaches 1:1. If everyone else hears as much bass as you do, they're going to turn up every time, then you need more, and a volume battle ensues.

No, adding the second 410 increases your low end response. Stacking the cabs vertically means you are not pushing all your mids at the ceiling.

Originally Posted by Tuned

If you produce the same amount of volume from a smaller area and it's all focused at your torso, you'll find it's too much and you turn down. You get a much higher ratio, more like you hear 3x as much as everyone else. If when you need to project more across the stage or into the room, simply step away from the cab or lower it towards the floor and turn up. Flooding the room is easy, avoiding flooding is the hard part, and 8x10's can't do it, period.

Flooding the room = better dispersion? yes an 810 is better than a 410 in that regard. So you response changes with the addition of the second set of 10's, you have an eq to combat this change.

Originally Posted by Tuned

A sealed cab sucks at deep bass no matter how many drivers you put in it, so having it on the floor is a moot issue. A vented cab on a stool easily puts out as much low end as a comparable sealed cab on the floor.

Yes I agree with you here, believe it or not some people dont want that extension.

Originally Posted by Tuned

And the beaming frequency of a 10" driver is 1650Hz, not much bass guitar tone going on above 1kHz, so your beaming argument is pretty hard to believe. Ampeg 8x10's might seem to beam less because all Ampeg cabs are flabby and undefined by comparison, not just 8x10's.

Actually side by side 10's act like a ~19" speaker so they start to beam around 850hz.
If you dont think there is much content above that point, I implore you to try out a low pass filter set at 850hz and discover how much you miss of your tone. If you dont believe the beaming argument go try a mid loaded cab compared to your 410, and listen to the difference in mid dispersion.

Originally Posted by Tuned

The manager at a local venue (also a bassist) that has a house Ampeg 8x10 cab asks me to leave my cab behind when he's playing the day after because even he hates the 8x10 compared to my 4x10, both on stage and out front. I assume you simply haven't experienced the effect for yourself, because it's night-and-day better.

I actually dont care for a sealed 810 either, a fEARful smokes all commercial cabs IMHO.

Originally Posted by Tuned

Not to mention, who would haul around a 16x10 if it wasn't any louder than an 8x10? Ampeg 8x10's are no louder than 4x10's by SWR, GK, even Traynor. Why break your back?

I dont, I play a cab that weighs less than some of those 410's but is louder than any 810.

[Tuned]

Flooding the room = even dispersion throughout the room. I need my bass louder than the other instruments where I'm standing, especially if I'm playing fretless. If I do so with absolutely even dispersion, then my bass is louder than everything else everywhere in the room. #1 complaint about 8x10's right there. Even dispersion is not preferred, aka not better.

The bottom 10's do add volume to the top 4 obviously, but it's not where it is needed. For example if I were to add a second 4x10 to my rig, I would also put it on a stool beside my existing 4x10 and point them slightly inwards aimed at my chest with the vents vertical in the middle. If that doesn't help then I most certainly don't need the second 4x10, especially since I'd certainly have PA support for that volume level.

I'm actually one of those people that does not need deep bass extension, my bass knob is generally left of center, but if a cabinet is more efficient down there, I don't need as much power to get what I want. This partly explains why it's completely believable that modern 4x10's can achieve 105dB sensitivity while the classic Ampeg 8x10 is only 102dB. A properly vented enclosure predictably adds at least 1dB of efficiency to the low end.

Multiple drivers do not affect the beaming frequency. If that were so, guitar 4x12 cabs would beam at less than 800Hz, and that's definitely not the case. Standing directly in front of my 4x10 yes I would miss the upper mids if they vanished, but out in the room they're completely dominated by the cymbals and guitars, except for highly percussive playing styles.

BTW the fEARful 1515/66 which is allegedly "louder than all 8x10 cabs" uses Eminence Kappalite 3015LF drivers (450 RMS, 98.4dB sensitivity) so for a pair in the cab it's 900W RMS and maybe 103dB sensitive max (the 6's don't contribute significantly to overall output level, just tone). Let's see how it stacks up against mine:
fEARful 1515/66: 900W RMS x 103dB/1W = 133.3dB max
SWR Goliath III 4x10: 700W RMS x 105dB/1W = 134.2dB max
Is fEARful a division of Bose or something? That's quite the bullsh|t hype.
Calculate it yourself: http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

Whaddaya know, 10's beat 15's AGAIN...

[Tuned]

BTW nothing against the folks at fEARful and I don't mean to be a jerk, all I can do here is convince you that my way might be worth trying. It's frustrating how people think it's nuts online while I've converted many a bassist to my way of doing things in person. It just works, try it and make your own decision.

[CL400Peavey]

Originally Posted by Tuned

Flooding the room = even dispersion throughout the room. I need my bass louder than the other instruments where I'm standing, especially if I'm playing fretless. If I do so with absolutely even dispersion, then my bass is louder than everything else everywhere in the room. #1 complaint about 8x10's right there. Even dispersion is not preferred, aka not better.

A lot of folks who carry the room with their rig would beg to differ with you on this. If all you need is stage monitoring, maybe but in ear monitors would be a better option with your logic.

Originally Posted by Tuned

The bottom 10's do add volume to the top 4 obviously, but it's not where it is needed. For example if I were to add a second 4x10 to my rig, I would also put it on a stool beside my existing 4x10 and point them slightly inwards aimed at my chest with the vents vertical in the middle. If that doesn't help then I most certainly don't need the second 4x10, especially since I'd certainly have PA support for that volume level.

Horizontal alignment would be sending the majority of your sound to the floor and ceiling. If you have enough PA support then you could actually do with a much smaller cab than the 410. Clearly your case is not what every player faces, and therefore your solution fits just as few cases.

[quote=Tuned;13629525]
I'm actually one of those people that does not need deep bass extension, my bass knob is generally left of center, but if a cabinet is more efficient down there, I don't need as much power to get what I want. This partly explains why it's completely believable that modern 4x10's can achieve 105dB sensitivity while the classic Ampeg 8x10 is only 102dB. A properly vented enclosure predictably adds at least 1dB of efficiency to the low end.[/qoote]
Yes you can have ultra high efficiency. There is always trade offs of power handling or response. What frequency was that 105 figure measured at? What is the roll off point? and what is the average frequency from 40hz to 20khz? You are comfortable with a narrow frequency band and a cabinet that beams that bandwidth to your face. Cheers, this by far does not fit everyones needs.

Originally Posted by Tuned

Multiple drivers do not affect the beaming frequency. If that were so, guitar 4x12 cabs would beam at less than 800Hz, and that's definitely not the case. Standing directly in front of my 4x10 yes I would miss the upper mids if they vanished, but out in the room they're completely dominated by the cymbals and guitars, except for highly percussive playing styles.

So you are saying that adding additional speakers does not change the dispersion pattern? Please, explain.

Adding a second 12" speaker horizontally to the first makes them couple and act like a ~22-23" speaker. So yes they do beam terribly. Your increased dispersion isnt flooding the room and causing your guitard to turn up, its the fact that his cab has terrible off axis response so he cant hear himself unless he has that 412 pointed at his face. Or if you are using a great PA, he is mic'ed and is hearing himself in the monitors. But guess what all the guitar tone is being represented out in the room by HF drivers.

Originally Posted by Tuned

BTW the fEARful 1515/66 which is allegedly "louder than all 8x10 cabs" uses Eminence Kappalite 3015LF drivers (450 RMS, 98.4dB sensitivity) so for a pair in the cab it's 900W RMS and maybe 103dB sensitive max (the 6's don't contribute significantly to overall output level, just tone). Let's see how it stacks up against mine:
fEARful 1515/66: 900W RMS x 103dB/1W = 133.3dB max
SWR Goliath III 4x10: 700W RMS x 105dB/1W = 134.2dB max

RMS power ratings have little bearing on true mechanical power handling, which is more a function of xMax. The 3015LF's have a 9.2 mm xMax, which is huge. They have a displacement of 846cc, this is why they go so low and can get so loud. A pair of them is mechanically limited to more like 1500 watts. As far as sensitivity specs go, as I mentioned earlier it really depends on how, and who by they are measured. This is not apples to apples. Please show a third party frequency response for your SWR 410. It would also be helpful to test its fart out point at 50 and 100 hz with a tone generator.

Originally Posted by Tuned

Whaddaya know, 10's beat 15's AGAIN...

No hype, just the facts ma'am. Please as I said can you direct me to any measurements of your cab done by a third party? All those manufacturer specs reek of BS. Just take a look at their posted specs for the Goliath 410 and 810. On the 410 they claim "frequency response" of 105 dB SPL @ 1W1M (-3dB @ 40Hz and 15KHz), but in the next line claim a "Sensitivity" of 100dB, 1Watt – 1 meter. So whats going on here? Now if any of these specs were true, why on their 810 do they only claim a sensitivity of 100 dB SPL @ 1W1M (-3dB @ 37 Hz & 13 kHz). If their technology worked as advertised in the 410 wouldnt the 810 have at a 108 db/w/m or 103 db/w/m rating? Now to further throw some question into those specs lets take a look at the Goliath 210, which claims a "Frequency Response" of 105 dB SPL @ 1W1M (-3dB @ 45Hz and 15KHz). Now if this tech works why isnt the 410 a 108 db/w/m cab? and the 810 a 111 db/w/m cab? Or if the 210 lives up to these specs why are you not using it as it is much smaller and lighter than your 410 while still being more than loud enough for anyone?

The answer is that these specs are marketing hogwash, and amount to little in real world terms. A third party response measurement would mean a little more, and no trickery of corner loading the cab or such nonsense.

Originally Posted by Tuned

BTW nothing against the folks at fEARful and I don't mean to be a jerk, all I can do here is convince you that my way might be worth trying. It's frustrating how people think it's nuts online while I've converted many a bassist to my way of doing things in person. It just works, try it and make your own decision.

You prefer a cab that has poor dispersion, dont want low end extension, and dont carry the room with your rig. That is all good, for you. It doesnt meet the needs of many bassists. That set of requirements may not even be desirable to many bassists. They may prefer the increased dispersion, low end, and tonal characteristics of an 810, or a 212, or a 610, or a 215, or any other cab.

[AlexanderB]

The problem with the SWR Goliath III and many other cabinets is that the specs are bogus. The standard 10" drivers in these and most other bass cabinets do not have the excursion, Fs and compliance to deliver lots of deep lows like dedicated PA woofers can. To my knowledge, Ampeg SVT-410HLF is the only widespread commercial 410 that can keep up with the different DIY cabs with the Eminence Kappalite 3015LF + mid. (I have had both setups and kept the Ampegs.)
The odd, almost sub-like 10" drivers and their voicing is not for everyone, though.

There might be some "middy" 410 that can honk out more mids than the 3015LF designs but that is normally not the range we run out of steam on a bass guitar.

[Fuzzbass]

Originally Posted by whatisacup

How does the NV610 compre to other 610's on the market in terms of volume and ability to cut through such as:

SVT610
SWR 610
other ported 610's

or the Avatar 410 + 210 I had the idea of

If you want the classic Ampeg SVT 8x10 tone but smaller, lighter, and louder, then get the Berg NV610. That's a no-brainer.

Like the classic 8x10, the NV610 is a sealed cabinet (no port), with no tweeter. Sealed cabs are noted for their midrange punch.

Modern cabs that have ports and tweeters have a more hi-fi sound. But as a gigging musician who plays five-string (often detuned a half-step), I think sealed cabs win for live performance: the "tighter" response down low is less likely to blur notes or interfere with the kick drum. Also, I use edgy aggressive tones for modern rock (including RHCP slap), and I much prefer the grind from a non-tweetered cab: no "buzzy bees" effect up top, especially when I dial in some tubey overdrive.

If you need modern clean slap tone with ultra-high 'ping' on top then you should go with a tweetered cab.

[jastacey]

I too at one time had a Ampeg OSB 810, it had the muddy sounding speakers, in due course I got tired of the bigness of the cab ... especially when looking up a flight of stairs ... I acquired a Berg 425, and then a Berg NV610 ( both cabinets are the same size ), the NV610 will stay cleaner and go louder than the Ampeg cabinet, it's much easier to move around, as a plus it will fit in the trunk of a Toyota Camery/Lexas, if you are looking at a smaller cabinet, a Berg HS410 will also sound similar to the Berg NV610, if your used to the wall of sound, get one of those cabinet tilt frames so you can angle the cabinet towards you upper body ... the only thing I'll add, is try as many cabinets as you can, with the amp and guitar you plan on using, beware what sounds good in the store/sellers house may not work in a gig situation, thats why we have talkbass!!!!!

[Fuzzbass]

P.S. As others have said, nearly all manufacturer specs are snake oil (i.e. misleading at best, outright BS at worst)

[Tuned]

Ok, I get it, if someone says your bass cab isn't as loud as theirs, it's because your cab's manufacturer's specs are right, and the other's are wrong.

But what about the driver manufacturer's specs? Eminence drivers have a 7-year even-if-you-blow-it-on-purpose replacement warranty. They have nothing to gain by exaggerating their specs, especially in their cabinet design PDF's.

If you look at the cab design specs for the 3015LF, there is one that has a 900W power handling capability, but it has 12 cubic feet of air space! The 1515/66 only has 8.4 cubic feet for two drivers!
(47" x 14.25" x 21.75" = 8.4 cu ft as per http://greenboy.us/fEARful/DL/1515+6...%201515+66.png )
All other Eminence cab designs, including some with more airspace per driver than the 1515/66, are all limited to 450W or less.
http://www.eminence.com/pdf/Kappalite_3015LF_cab.pdf
So you're telling me that fEARful found a way to cheat physics that Eminence couldn't figure out with their own drivers?

Meanwhile, SWR uses a variation of the Delta 10, rated at 350W RMS each, and the cab design power limits range from 125W to 350W per driver, or 500W to 1400W for a 4x10. It is well within the capabilities of Eminence and SWR to work out a 700W cab and a custom driver to make it happen. The sensitivity of the Delta 10B (in my 4 ohm cab) is 98dB, four of them adds 6dB, plus another 1dB for the vented cab, and you get 105dB sensitivity.
http://www.eminence.com/pdf/Delta_10A_cab.pdf

Based on Eminence's own specs a 1500W 8.4 cu ft cab using two 3015LF's is flat out impossible, while a 700W 105dB 4x10 using Delta 10's is completely feasible.

[Vintage Guy]

I have a MarkBass 106HF and it kills! Used to lug a Carvin 8x10 around. The MarkBass even has tons of head room outdoors!

[CL400Peavey]

Originally Posted by Tuned

Ok, I get it, if someone says your bass cab isn't as loud as theirs, it's because your cab's manufacturer's specs are right, and the other's are wrong.

I dont take any manufacturers specs with out a grain of salt. What I do trust is measurements by third parties.

As far as all the other specs you posted go, they dont really matter. There is enough inconsistencies going around that none of your arguments really add up for me.

Beyond that you are going way off topic. This thread was about 810's and 610's, not about how you dig a 410 with poor dispersion, huge mid range spike, and little content below 100hz. That is what works for you, which is great, but isnt really relevant to the OP.

[Tuned]

As for the dispersion issue, carrying the room or not, the dispersion pattern for bass cabinets is effectively 360 degrees, no matter how you position them, except immediately in front. Yes, there's a modicum of signal above the beaming frequency, but it's of no consequence to anyone but the player when driving the room. I can carry any room an Ampeg 8x10 or fEARful 1515/66 can with my SWR G3 4x10. Can the 1515/66 reach deeper? Probably, but it's no substitute for a subwoofer, and in order for the kick drum to match the output of my 4x10 there'd have to be a subwoofer in use already anyway.

However, if you want to completely drown out an un-amplified kick drum, I bow to your keen insights.

[Tuned]

You're right I did go off-topic, I apologize. It started by saying that a 4-ohm 4x10 would load the OP's amp better than a 8 ohm 4x10 + 16 ohm 2x10, and would probably be enough.