Ditching a fridge for a 610?

[AlexanderB]

Tuned said:

If you look at the cab design specs for the 3015LF, there is one that has a 900W power handling capability, but it has 12 cubic feet of air space! The 1515/66 only has 8.4 cubic feet for two drivers!
(47" x 14.25" x 21.75" = 8.4 cu ft as per http://greenboy.us/fEARful/DL/1515+6...%201515+66.png )
All other Eminence cab designs, including some with more airspace per driver than the 1515/66, are all limited to 450W or less.
http://www.eminence.com/pdf/Kappalite_3015LF_cab.pdf
So you're telling me that fEARful found a way to cheat physics that Eminence couldn't figure out with their own drivers?

Meanwhile, SWR uses a variation of the Delta 10, rated at 350W RMS each, and the cab design power limits range from 125W to 350W per driver, or 500W to 1400W for a 4x10. It is well within the capabilities of Eminence and SWR to work out a 700W cab and a custom driver to make it happen. The sensitivity of the Delta 10B (in my 4 ohm cab) is 98dB, four of them adds 6dB, plus another 1dB for the vented cab, and you get 105dB sensitivity.
http://www.eminence.com/pdf/Delta_10A_cab.pdf

Based on Eminence's own specs a 1500W 8.4 cu ft cab using two 3015LF's is flat out impossible, while a 700W 105dB 4x10 using Delta 10's is completely feasible.

Respectfully, you should read up on speaker systems and their design. Your post makes little to no sense. Example: A so called 450W Kappa C (which is a common OEM 15" driver for bass cabs from EBS, Orange and Marshall if IRC) has about +- 2.4mm linear excursion. It takes only about 50-70W of clean, deep bass to push this speaker into distortion when mounted in a typical bass cabinet. It will survive more power but maximum clean bass output is limited to about 105-110dB. It will probably push 120-ish in the 200Hz area, though. Expect your SWR to perform similarly.

[whatisacup]

Wow this went off topic

Originally Posted by Tuned

You're right I did go off-topic, I apologize. It started by saying that a 4-ohm 4x10 would load the OP's amp better than a 8 ohm 4x10 + 16 ohm 2x10, and would probably be enough.

Are you saying a 4 ohm 410 would be better than a 8 ohm 410 + 16 ohm 210 together?

So confused.

I know a lot of people prefer one large cab as opposed to two smaller ones. I don't feel that way. I would much prefer lug to smaller cabs around. Stairs are not my friend.

[whatisacup]

I keep hearing about what the beast the NV610 is.

What specifically makes this 610 louder than other ported 610's and the Ampeg 810?

I was under the assumption sealed cabs were overall not as sensitive as ported. This is why most sealed cabs have 6-8 speakers.

[joe5cent]

First off, having a the cabs wired as described in the original post will not produce a wiring where ever speaker is the same impedance, and sees the same voltage.

You can go read books on this stuff, but in general
1) the more speakers you line up the more they couple (add coherently) at low frequencies
2) the HF beaming quality is a function of the driver size,
3) when you put multiple speakers in close proximity the HF beams interact in a complex way.
4) the more speakers you put in a row the more it beams, this is part of a line array
5) totally agree that specs are just marketing. A real spec will state an input voltage to the spkr, the frequency or range of frequencies, and what SPL is measured at a specific distance. FYI that standard distance is typicalty 10 meters for PA spkrs. The distance needs to be 3 to 10 times the cabinet height so that what is measured is representative of the combined drivers summing in the far field.

To compare them you gotta get different cabs in the same room with the same amp.

[Mastermold]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Right, that's why so many bass players use Ampeg cabs...because they're flabby and undefined and have no output.



I can make a case for you saying that about some of the Ampeg cabs made from 2000-2006. But I have to think that those are the only Ampeg cabs you've used. Nothing at all undefined about my tone through Ampeg cabs, thank you very much.

My 2010 Heritage 810 is the best sounding cab I've heard. I think it was made by magic elves.

[whatisacup]

I agree that the Ampeg 810 is a great cab, no need to convince me, but it's weight is currently not practical for me.

A lot of information is being thrown around, most of it I don't understand.

I really need help deciding on a rig. A 610 or 410 + 210 is what i'm looking for. I'm leaning towards the Avatars, I like the idea of having two separate cabs ( I know some like one large cab, but it's currently not working for me).

Really not sure if it will be loud enough compared to the 810.

[whatisacup]

I was also considering having Low Down Sound build me a 610 cabinet.

I played an Orange 410 a while ago and LOVED it. I know it has off the shelf Eminence Beta 10a drivers.

Thinking of having a 610 built with these drivers, to sound like the orange.


I play loud (not stupid loud, I don't play metal or hardcore). Just need advice if an Ampeg SVT -7 Pro and a 610 would be loud enough.

At this point, I'm leaning towards a 610 build with Beta's, if that helps. I love how that Orange sounded.

[dukeisdog]

Originally Posted by whatisacup

I agree that the Ampeg 810 is a great cab, no need to convince me, but it's weight is currently not practical for me.

A lot of information is being thrown around, most of it I don't understand.

I really need help deciding on a rig. A 610 or 410 + 210 is what i'm looking for. I'm leaning towards the Avatars, I like the idea of having two separate cabs ( I know some like one large cab, but it's currently not working for me).

Really not sure if it will be loud enough compared to the 810.

Are you really pushing the 810? You've had a few guys come in here and say that you'd be all good with a 610 most likely.

Still wouldn't write off this Mesa if you're looking at the Berg. I was sold on my 810e as my only big cab until I picked up my Mesa cabs.

[BogeyBass]

Originally Posted by whatisacup

I was also considering having Low Down Sound build me a 610 cabinet.

The custom built 6x10 sounds like a much better idea

than a 4x10 + 210. I understand your approach and why this seems a easier solution. But i dont feel its a good choice and many others seem to agree.

The custom built 6x10 would be much lighter, and the betas might be able to keep up. At lower volumes the tone you like would be fine. But compared to the 8x10 you might be riding them on edge at higher volumes.

maybe all the big 215 suggestions dont float your boat, but if you like the lighter 2cab solution. I would go with 2 matching cabinets. And the suggestion of using 2 2x12 cabinets is a very good suggestion. Maybe not what you imagined. But 2 cabinets
with Vertical drivers will very nice for you and band members.
And the 2 cabinets stacked would be a monster. Also easily carried out when done.

Otherwise if your really loving the idea of a 6x10. Maybe think about having 2 custom vertical 3x10 cabinets made.
or build them yourself and use the drivers you have now from the 810.

or have a crossfire 610 built. or just set up the 2 3x10's in a crossfire configuration on stage. likewise with the 2x12 if you dont want to stack them high set them up on stage as a crossfire.

[joe5cent]

I wish amps didn't have a RMS wattage ratings. RMS is an indication of how well it can produce a sine wave (like a pure organ tone with no harmonic content). Really what you want to know is how much voltage the amp head can apply to a speaker when the bass goes thump. That is how all these little digital bass heads are reated as 800-1200 watts, they can apply over 100volts to the speaker for a short period of time which is not an RMS measurement, but who cares ? we aren't makin a PA, we are playing bass.

So if these companies are telling us the truth, any bass amp & cab combo that has similar speaker sensitivity and amplification specs will perform similarly. Note the venerable Ampeg (a classic sound for sure) is based on eight 10" speakers, to handle 800 watts (100 watts /spkr). Newer speaker designs can use voice coils that handle more power. 150 to 200 watts a spkr is easy to achieve. So we can imagine a 4 x10 cabinet with with similar spkr sensitivity can produced the same SPL. But it will sound different.

On top of that when you look at the frequency response specs of bass loudspeakers you see many have a boost in the 2k to 5k region, so they all have their own sonic signature.

Also bass cabs work best for low freqs when sitting on the floor. Having a rigid surface from the cabinet to the floor helps. I used to carry a piece of 3/4" ply to sit under the front of my 2x10 when on a stand. It made the front of the cabinet acoustically longer, and improved LF coupling to the floor. If I had a good road case you could get the same benefit from setting the speaker on the road case.

IMO - there are several 6x10s that can compete with the Ampeg 8x10 based on volume. I have a Mesa 2x10 that is efficient, it is loud for a 2x10 and is rated for 600 watts RMS. Can you swing two 4x10 cabs, or two 3x10 cabs? That will give you some options. I like a 15 plus a 2x10 for versatility. Both cabinets need to be rated for the same ohms, or else they will not get the same power to each cabinet.

[5StringPocket]

If considering a custom 610 cab, I just finished this .5 aligned sealed 610 and am very pleased with both its sound and portability. I'd highly recommend the .5 alignment for any 10-loaded cab with side by side mounted drivers. It really improves the dispersion and focus of the sound. A 610 won't be quite as loud as an 810 unless the drivers are more efficient and handle more power per driver but a 610 is easy to move and should provide enough headroom for all but the loudest onstage mix. This one is 34"H x 23"W x 16"D, 75 lbs, 900W, 5.3 ohms, and capable of 130dB at 110 Hz and above at excursion-rated max of 545 watts. I drive it with a Genz Benz Streamliner 900 which has a very good power match and complementary voicing (tubey sounding amp with fat lows adds beef and warmth to the attenuated lows of this sealed design).


My .5 Aligned Sealed 610 Build

When choosing a bass cab it helps to consider the tone profile you're after. A ported cab has more low end than a sealed one but a sealed cab has a tighter low end with more perceived punch because there is more upper bass and low mids relative to extended low bass. A 10" driver can be voiced for higher sensitivity and can really put out those mids around 1Khz where rated sensitivity is usually reported but won't have a strong bass response below about 80 hz. Or it can have a good bass response but will not be as efficient or have an extended high end (see the new Eminence 3010LF). It's quite revealing to consider resonant frequency (Fs), displacement volume (Vd), sensitivity, and excursion-limited (not thermal) max power which can be checked with a simple WinISD model. No free lunch here, every choice has design tradeoffs.

I also built a pair of 15/6/1 cabs to my dimensions based on the fEarful design with similar tuning.
http://www.talkbass.com/wiki/index.php/5StringPocket
These two cabs are on opposite ends of the spectrum. I really like how my new 610 sounds in the mix; great classic tone with plenty of volume and a nice tight low end with good note definition. For the tone I'm after and with FOH support this is a nice stage cab but for low end, the ported 15/6/1 cabs loaded with those Kappalite 3015LF just crush. I'm not going to make a case for 1500 watts but the 15/6/1 is a 3-way cab so the watts are distributed among 3 drivers with some losses in the crossover. I can hook this pair up to my Crest CA9 and drive them full out and they take all 1200 watts without flinching and no low frequency fartout at obscene SPL. Bottom line, for max SPL at low frequency (35-80 Hz) the combination of displacement volume, excursion-limited max wattage and sensitivity is king. That's why they use this style of 15" low frequency woofer and not 10's for high power PA systems. By design these low frequency monsters don't have an extended high frequency response which is why they crossover to a mid driver which is optimally suited for its bandwidth.

That said, I use these 15/6/1 cabs for my practice PA and not as gigging bass cabs because I like the way my more traditional cabs make my bass sound. Bottom line here is not buying into questionable vendor specs but understand driver limitations and tradeoffs, consider both driver and cab configuration, its voicing, ease of handling, and the right amount of headroom to meet your needs. If you can actually try it out and it checks the boxes, just buy it and enjoy.

[iualum]

If you're really set on a 610 w/Beta-10As, great.

http://www.usspeaker.com/BETA10A-1.htm

LDS is a super option for the build. Don does top notch work.

Personally, though, I just don't understand a 610. Any 610 actually.

A 215 using Delta Lite II 2515s gives you roughly 210cc greater displacement than a Beta-10A 610 & the Delta's sensitivity is 99.2 vs. the Beta's 97. Plus the 2 Deltas are only $340 vs. $450 on the 6 Betas. The 215 cab would be significantly smaller/lighter, too, saving not just more on shipping but also on your back every time you move it.

http://www.usspeaker.com/delta%20lite2515II-1.htm

For just a bit more, you could do a 215 w/Faital Pro 15FH510s. They're on sale until 12/31 for only $195, $390 for a pair. Tremendous price. The Xmax is 9.35mm, a Vd in excess of 720cc. A single 15FH510 moves more air than the entire Beta 610!

http://www.usspeaker.com/faital%20pro%2015FH510-1.htm

Or for just $10 more than a Beta 610, you could do a 215 w/Faital 15PR400s. There are really smart guys who literally swear by these. Along with Eminence Kappa Lite 3015s, almost surely the very best full-range 15 on the market.

http://www.usspeaker.com/faital%20pro%2015PR400-1.htm

[adivin]

Originally Posted by 5StringPocket

If considering a custom 610 cab, I just finished this .5 aligned sealed 610 and am very pleased with both its sound and portability. I'd highly recommend the .5 alignment for any 10-loaded cab with side by side mounted drivers. It really improves the dispersion and focus of the sound. A 610 won't be quite as loud as an 810 unless the drivers are more efficient and handle more power per driver but a 610 is easy to move and should provide enough headroom for all but the loudest onstage mix. This one is 34"H x 23"W x 16"D, 75 lbs, 900W, 5.3 ohms, and capable of 130dB at 110 Hz and above at excursion-rated max of 545 watts. I drive it with a Genz Benz Streamliner 900 which has a very good power match and complementary voicing (tubey sounding amp with fat lows adds beef and warmth to the attenuated lows of this sealed design).


My .5 Aligned Sealed 610 Build

When choosing a bass cab it helps to consider the tone profile you're after. A ported cab has more low end than a sealed one but a sealed cab has a tighter low end with more perceived punch because there is more upper bass and low mids relative to extended low bass. A 10" driver can be voiced for higher sensitivity and can really put out those mids around 1Khz where rated sensitivity is usually reported but won't have a strong bass response below about 80 hz. Or it can have a good bass response but will not be as efficient or have an extended high end (see the new Eminence 3010LF). It's quite revealing to consider resonant frequency (Fs), displacement volume (Vd), sensitivity, and excursion-limited (not thermal) max power which can be checked with a simple WinISD model. No free lunch here, every choice has design tradeoffs.

I also built a pair of 15/6/1 cabs to my dimensions based on the fEarful design with similar tuning.
http://www.talkbass.com/wiki/index.php/5StringPocket
These two cabs are on opposite ends of the spectrum. I really like how my new 610 sounds in the mix; great classic tone with plenty of volume and a nice tight low end with good note definition. For the tone I'm after and with FOH support this is a nice stage cab but for low end, the ported 15/6/1 cabs loaded with those Kappalite 3015LF just crush. I'm not going to make a case for 1500 watts but the 15/6/1 is a 3-way cab so the watts are distributed among 3 drivers with some losses in the crossover. I can hook this pair up to my Crest CA9 and drive them full out and they take all 1200 watts without flinching and no low frequency fartout at obscene SPL. Bottom line, for max SPL at low frequency (35-80 Hz) the combination of displacement volume, excursion-limited max wattage and sensitivity is king. That's why they use this style of 15" low frequency woofer and not 10's for high power PA systems. By design these low frequency monsters don't have an extended high frequency response which is why they crossover to a mid driver which is optimally suited for its bandwidth.

That said, I use these 15/6/1 cabs for my practice PA and not as gigging bass cabs because I like the way my more traditional cabs make my bass sound. Bottom line here is not buying into questionable vendor specs but understand driver limitations and tradeoffs, consider both driver and cab configuration, its voicing, ease of handling, and the right amount of headroom to meet your needs. If you can actually try it out and it checks the boxes, just buy it and enjoy.

Thank you for this post. Why did you decide on your custom 610 and not the NV 610?

[whatisacup]

Eh, this is so confusing. I'm thinking about just getting a new 810.....eh.

[iualum]

Originally Posted by whatisacup

Eh, this is so confusing. I'm thinking about just getting a new 810.....eh.

Don't settle for an 810, unless you can get one for a really excellent price. A 15FH510-equipped 215 would be a great choice.

[Bufalo]

Ya know what, after all this crazy **** thread - if you like the sound of your 8x10, just get another one. What did someone's sig say? "quit wanking and play the freakin' bass."

What does your band like?

[whatisacup]

Originally Posted by iualum

Don't settle for an 810, unless you can get one for a really excellent price. A 15FH510-equipped 215 would be a great choice.

This sounds very promising. But can someone explain to me how a single 15 can be louder than a 610? Not that I don't believe you guys, I'm just very interested. I've been brainwashed into thinking more speakers = better.

I'm thinking about this 15fh510 215, but I'm lost in trying to understand how it works.

But I do want a big cab. The 810 is a little much, but I still want something large behind me.

[iualum]

Originally Posted by whatisacup

This sounds very promising. But can someone explain to me how a single 15 can be louder than a 610? Not that I don't believe you guys, I'm just very interested. I've been brainwashed into thinking more speakers = better.

I'm thinking about this 15fh510 215, but I'm lost in trying to understand how it works.

But I do want a big cab. The 810 is a little much, but I still want something large behind me.

Just want to mention that I have absolutely no horse in this race. Not shilling for Eminence, Faital, US Speaker or anyone else for that matter. Just trying to provide accurate info. If I'm off base, trust someone (or someones ) will chime in. But really pretty sure this particular info is correct.

More speakers generally are better (more of the same speakers are always better, if you want to lug them, that is ). But it all depends on the speakers used (& of course, on the quality/design of the cab, but LDS would cover this base).

You'd specifically mentioned the Eminence Beta 10 (& doubt you meant the 10-CX coaxial or 10CBMRA closed-back, so I was talking about the 10A).

http://www.usspeaker.com/BETA10A-1.htm

The main component of loudness is displacement (Vd is the specification). This means air movement. Moving more air means louder. Vd is Sd (the surface area of the speaker cone) x Xmax (voice coil overhang, how far the speaker moves).

For the Beta-10A, the Sd is .03449 m2 & the Xmax is 3.0 mm. The Vd for a Beta-10A is 103.47 cc. Multiply by 6 for a 610 & the total Vd is 620.82 cc.

Now for the Faital Pro 15FH510...

http://www.usspeaker.com/faital%20pro%2015FH510-1.htm

The Vd for this driver is .080 m2 (Sd) x 9.35 mm (Xmax), or 748 cc.

Sensitivity also is a significant factor in loudness, but it's basically a wash for these two, with the Beta-10A @ 97dB SPL & the 15FH510 @ 98dB SPL.

I'm pretty sure on this point, but am sure a more learned TBer will correct me if I'm wrong here . Another factor is having the amp wattage to be able to push the speakers closer to their Xmax & their total loudness potential. You mentioned the Streamliner (900? 900 watts) & the SVT 7 Pro (1000 watts). The 6 Beta-10As have a total RMS of 1500 watts (250 x 6). The 15FH510's total RMS would be 1000 watts. So you'd get closer to utilizing the full Xmax (major factor in loudness potential) of the Faitals than you would the Eminences.

And, again, the 15FH510 215 is smaller, lighter, & less bread. But the sale price is only good through Monday, so if you plan to do this, calling Don & having him order Monday would be a good idea.

The Delta Lite II 2515s & (especially) the Faital Pro 15PR400s or (for $80 more, total, over the 15PR400s) Eminence Kappa Lite 3015s (non-Low Frequency version) are all excellent choices, too.

[CL400Peavey]

Originally Posted by iualum

Sensitivity also is a significant factor in loudness, but it's basically a wash for these two, with the Beta-10A @ 97dB SPL & the 15FH510 @ 98dB SPL.

I'm pretty sure on this point, but am sure a more learned TBer will correct me if I'm wrong here . Another factor is having the amp wattage to be able to push the speakers closer to their Xmax & their total loudness potential. You mentioned the Streamliner (900? 900watts) & the SVT 7 Pro (1000 watts). The 6 Beta-10As have a total RMS of 1500 watts (250 x 6). The 15FH510's total RMS would be 1000 watts. So you'd get closer to utilizing the full Xmax (major factor in loudness potential) of the Faitals than you would the Eminences.

The thing is you gain sensitivity with using multiple 10's. Ever time you double you gain ~3db of sensitivity. So you are looking at closer to 104db/w/m with the 610. So you would have to use twice the power with the 215 (101db) to achieve the same SPL. This of course doesnt take into account frequency response or cab design, and doesnt impart anything on what the tonal characteristics of the cabs.

Also looking at the response charts is a bit revealing. The B10a has a huge mid spike, which probably attributes to its higher sensitivity rating. From 50-500hz though its sitting closer to ~95db/w/m and starts rolling off in the low end around 150hz, and takes a steep dive.

The 15fh510 on the other hand has a much stronger low end response. The down side is that it takes a hard nose dive in the upper range. So tonally it may not have what is being sought after.

The sweet spot for full range drivers is the 15PR400 or the 3015. Much more robust in the lows than the beta, and still have decent response up top.

[iualum]

Originally Posted by CL400Peavey

The thing is you gain sensitivity with using multiple 10's. Ever time you double you gain ~3db of sensitivity. So you are looking at closer to 104db/w/m with the 610. So you would have to use twice the power with the 215 (101db) to achieve the same SPL. This of course doesnt take into account frequency response or cab design, and doesnt impart anything on what the tonal characteristics of the cabs.

Also looking at the response charts is a bit revealing. The B10a has a huge mid spike, which probably attributes to its higher sensitivity rating. From 50-500hz though its sitting closer to ~95db/w/m and starts rolling off in the low end around 150hz, and takes a steep dive.

The 15fh510 on the other hand has a much stronger low end response. The down side is that it takes a hard nose dive in the upper range. So tonally it may not have what is being sought after.

The sweet spot for full range drivers is the 15PR400 or the 3015. Much more robust in the lows than the beta, and still have decent response up top.

Thanks. Yes, knew that multiple drivers increases sensitivity, but couldn't recall to what extent.

Don't you mean 100 & 103, through, rather than 101 & 104? But would six really go to ~104 (103?)? Going from 2 to 4 would get you to ~100, understand. But wouldn't going from 4 to 6 (a 50% increase) bring you to ~101.5? Or am I wrong on this? Just asking.

Also, agree on the 15PR400s/3015s. Truly "best of show" super speakers. Mentioned the 15FH510s because of the $195 sale price.

I also like the Delta II 2515s higher frequency range (3.7 kHz) & slightly higher sensitivity (99.2 dB, ~102 SPL in combo) in addition to their price ($170). Of course they have lower displacement (~822 cc for a pair), but that's still 32.5% greater than a Beta-10A-equipped 610 (~621 cc). Then again, though, this would be a 600 RMS box.

And one more item...even if the 104 (103) dB SPL on a Beta-10A 610 is right (vs. the 101 on the 15FH510), requiring double (nearly double) the power to attain the same loudness with the Faitals, wouldn't that be offset with 2.4 times the displacement of these Faitals over these Eminences (1496 cc vs. 620 cc)?