Do certain cabs work better with tube amps?

[SactoBass]

I did a search and could not find a thread that talks specifically about certain cabs (or cab types) that work well with all-tube amps and those that do not. For the purposes of this thread, let's assume a 300 watt all-tube amp.

As I was searching, I found a few comments here and there by some TB'ers stating that, in general, tube amp output transformers have a much lower damping factor than solid state amps, and therefore, when using a tube amp, you should use either:

a) a sealed type cab or;

b) if the cab is ported, the drivers should be designed with relatively "tight" (or stiff) surrounds and spiders.

Based on what I have read, the above choices help to avoid over-excursion of the drivers in the lower frequencies due to the lower damping factor of the tube amp. Otherwise, the drivers may/will over extend on the lower freqs.

Does the above really hold true?? Or is that all myth, and we really don't need to worry about such things? That is my first question for you. (Bill Fitzmaurice and others, please chime in on that topic.) And if it is indeed true, then when shopping for a ported cab, how the heck would you know whether it would work well with a tube amp or not??

My second question is, if indeed there is merit to the above discussion, then which cabs are a better match for 300 watt all-tube amps? Some obvious choices, based on what I have read from other TB'ers, are:

• Ampeg SVT fridge cab (sealed)
• Berg NV series (sealed)
• Berg HS410 (or a pair of HS210's) (ported)
• Sadowsky SA410 (discontinued) (ported)

Any others?? (sealed or ported)

Thanks!

[JimmyM]

i don't worry about such things. i know a lot of guys on here have gone through the "what cab sounds good with what amp" thing, but to me a good cab is a good cab, and a good amp will sound good through any good cab.

[SactoBass]

Thanks Jimmy. For clarification, I don't want this thread to be construed as a "what cab sounds good?" thread. (That's like those "what is the best bass" threads).

This thread is focusing on what cabs function well with all tube amps, and which ones do not. I am focusing on function, not sound. More specifically, the issue of over excursion with all-tube amps [due to low damping factor] plugged into cabs with drivers that are too loose in the low end (if that makes any sense).

....unless it is all myth, in which case we can shop for any type of cab to go with an all-tube amp (provided it is a quality cab of course).

EDIT: For example, would a Genz Benz Uber 212 cab function well with a 300 watt all-tube amp? How about a fEarful 15/6?

[edwinhurwitz]

For my ears, efficiency matters, which has translated into bigger cabinets. A large old school double 15 with ports works better than a modern style 4x10. However, that's because I like to get as much volume as possible without too much distortion or grind. So, YMMV and at the end of the day, if you like it, it works.

[JimmyM]

there's a dude on here named main sale who uses an svt-vr into two genz benz neox 212's and loves it. i've run an svt through a prototype audiokinesis cab that uses the low frequency neos and mid driver kinda sorta similar to a fearful and loved it.

[faulknersj]

This does not directly answer your question, but I believe that pairing a head and cab by the same manufacturer often yields a consistently good result. Ampeg / Ampeg, Genz Benz with Genz Benz, etc... This opinion is based on experiences pairing a diverse array of gear together over the years. I believe manufactures test and tweak their amps thru their own cabs thus yielding a consistently good match. Just my opinion based on my experiences.

[SactoBass]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

there's a dude on here named main sale who uses an svt-vr into two genz benz neox 212's and loves it. i've run an svt through a prototype audiokinesis cab that uses the low frequency neos and mid driver kinda sorta similar to a fearful and loved it.

Very interesting! That kinda suggests that as long as the cabs are quality cabs, then no worries!

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by faulknersj

This does not directly answer your question, but I believe that pairing a head and cab by the same manufacturer often yields a consistently good result. Ampeg / Ampeg, Genz Benz with Genz Benz, etc... This opinion is based on experiences pairing a diverse array of gear together over the years. I believe manufactures test ant tweak their amps thru their own cabs thus yielding a consistently good match. Just my opinion based on my experiences.

i believe that too, but i also believe that quality is quality no matter who makes it and two quality items will always work well together. may not be your perfect dream match, but it just might be.

[seamonkey]

Damping factor is never published across a wide frequency response. It varies greatly in tube amps between lows and high frequencies. At 80hz it is negligible.

A properly designed cabinet isn't going to have a over excursion problem unless you really push the the lows like sub harmonics. When it sounds bad turn down the bass.

Tube amps don't have the frequency response to push the real lows anyhow. Nobody ever worries about adding a rumble/high pass on a tube amp.
(Somebody could post a Frequency Response graph at high power and prove me wrong)

A Bill Fitzmaurice designed sub and top are going to be twice as loud and probably weight a fraction of any of the traditional cabs.

[SactoBass]

Originally Posted by faulknersj

This does not directly answer your question, but I believe that pairing a head and cab by the same manufacturer often yields a consistently good result. Ampeg / Ampeg, Genz Benz with Genz Benz, etc... This opinion is based on experiences pairing a diverse array of gear together over the years. I believe manufactures test ant tweak their amps thru their own cabs thus yielding a consistently good match. Just my opinion based on my experiences.

I think there is alot of merit to that!

How about a scenario where someone buys a 300 watt all-tube amp made by a custom amp builder who only builds amps and not cabs, and they are looking for a cab to go with the amp? Brand matching is not an option in that scenario.

[SactoBass]

Originally Posted by seamonkey

Tube amps don't have the frequency response to push the real lows anyhow. Nobody ever worries about adding a rumble/high pass on a tube amp.

Hmmm......good point sm. That makes sense. I wonder why some TB'ers had posted in other threads that they experienced over excursion using their tube amps. Perhaps the cab they were using was not of high quality.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by SactoBass

Hmmm......good point sm. That makes sense. I wonder why some TB'ers had posted in other threads that they experienced over excursion using their tube amps. Perhaps the cab they were using was not of high quality.

or maybe they were diming the bass control. or maybe they're just dopey

[faulknersj]

In the case of the custom manufactured amp, I would bring that head into my local shop with the largest inventory of quality cabs, and A/B as many as possible. This is the only way to know for sure. I have done this many times.

[Mr. Foxen]

Sensitivity is a more important factor for tube amps, because they don't have as much power on tap, and low end extension is less important, because that is the place that uses the power. Also have to worry less about power handling with tube amps. Which basically means tiny cabs with really high power handling probably won't be suited to tube amps, because they need the juice to get loud, and loads of relatively crappy speakers in a bit box will be great (ampeg 8x10) because it has the sensitivity to make lots of sound from not much power.

[greenboy]

If one considers any single-15 cab loud enough with a given tube head, a fEarful 15/6 or 15/6tube is going to suit them just fine. And if one is looking for lower SPL to drive a head harder as is sometimes the case a 12/6 can be considered.

[gillento]

Originally Posted by SactoBass

... Some obvious choices, based on what I have read from other TB'ers, are:

• Ampeg SVT fridge cab (sealed)
• Berg NV series (sealed)
• Berg HS410 (or a pair of HS210's) (ported)
• Sadowsky SA410 (discontinued) (ported)

Any others?? (sealed or ported)

Originally Posted by faulknersj

... I believe that pairing a head and cab by the same manufacturer often yields a consistently good result. Ampeg / Ampeg, Genz Benz with Genz Benz, etc... This opinion is based on experiences pairing a diverse array of gear together over the years. I believe manufactures test ant tweak their amps thru their own cabs thus yielding a consistently good match. Just my opinion based on my experiences.

My all tube experience is not vast at all:

in the past:
Weber Mywatt 100 & 200 (Hiwatt clones)
Ampeg V4 BH

right now: Sadowsky SA200.

I played the SA200, the Webers and the V4 through the SA410 cab you mentioned.
Right now I play the SA200 through my Aguilar db212.

I think this particular combo sounds way more tubey "bloomy" (in a good way), but also more defined than the Sadowsky SA200/410 combo.
And this comes from a guy who really likes quickness in amps (my other fav. combination is the db212 with a Markbass SA450)

[Bassdirty]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

i don't worry about such things. i know a lot of guys on here have gone through the "what cab sounds good with what amp" thing, but to me a good cab is a good cab, and a good amp will sound good through any good cab.

Jimmy wins...
that is the correct answer.

To his point...there are so many "crappy" (or "low end") cabs that sound like crab no matter what you're runnin it with.


And out of the "good cabs" (which IMO are cabs that will do their job as they state they will...) the ones that are the "best" for a tube head ...is totally up to you.



.

[Jefe]

One thing to consider with the fEarful 15/6 is that it's a 8ohm cabinet. Alot of tube amps will only drive 4 or 2 ohm loads (SVT's). You run the risk of damaging the tube amp if the impedance is not properly matched.

[SactoBass]

Originally Posted by Jefe

One thing to consider with the fEarful 15/6 is that it's a 8ohm cabinet. Alot of tube amps will only drive 4 or 2 ohm loads (SVT's). You run the risk of damaging the risk of damaging the tube amp if the impedance is not properly matched.

That's why *TWO* fEarful 15/6's are more fun than one!

[Passinwind]

Originally Posted by seamonkey

Tube amps don't have the frequency response to push the real lows anyhow. Nobody ever worries about adding a rumble/high pass on a tube amp.

I guess you never worked on old hi-fi tube sets much, eh? They had no problem whatsoever tracking warpage in records, and rumble filters were extremely common.