Do TB'ers resent advice about how audio science works?

JimmyM · #1 10-17-2010, 03:17 PM

I'm beginning to think that as a whole, they really do. From those who will argue to the death that underpowering a cab with too little watts will blow it to those who refuse to believe that the 115 they've got under their 410 won't give them more low end than a second identical 410 even though there's plenty of evidence otherwise, it seems there's recently been a big backlash against that advice. And frankly, I don't get it.

I only wish I had access to the brainpower available here 35 years ago when I was just starting. Thanks to the good and honest advice I've received here, I've been able to identify flaws in my gear and the reasons why they were flawed, and I've been given great advice about how to combat those flaws.

Now does it mean I don't use flawed gear anymore? Far from it. My 810 and two 115 cabs do exactly what guys like Bill FM tell me they do...beam highs and upper mids toward the center of the cab to where you can't hear them standing off to the side of the cab. But I love the sound I get from them, and I almost always mic them into the PA, so it's hardly an issue for me. Having said that, I am getting a couple cabs that address the beaming issue.

But I really see no reason to get resentful when someone on here asks for advice and someone else points out the flaws in their gear in an effort to help them get what they want. It's as if they're arguing against education. Honestly, I think it's less that they're arguing against being educated and more of a thing where they feel like they're going to have to throw more money at their rig, and I think that's the main source of the resentment. Been there, done that. But now that I'm sorted, I'm having the best sound I ever had, and I'm enjoying myself a lot more and trying to fix flaws a lot less. I don't see that as a bad thing.

Comments? Questions? Vitriol?

will33 · #2 10-17-2010, 03:37 PM

I guess you could call it resentment. Sometimes it seems folks just need to be less emotional and more analytical. Some seem to be uber sensitive and somehow get offended if someone points out the flaws in what they're doing in an effort to point them in the right direction or pokes holes in some myth they've thought for years was gospel.

I know the stuff has helped me a lot although I understand that a neoLF crossed to a mid driver isn't what everybody's looking for either even if it does make the most sense technically.

RoboChrist · #3 10-17-2010, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyM

to those who refuse to believe that the 115 they've got under their 410 won't give them more low end than a second identical 410 even though there's plenty of evidence otherwise

I would like to hear how 15 inches of speaker area can give you more bottom than 40 inches.

Passinwind · #4 10-17-2010, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoboChrist

I would like to hear how 15 inches of speaker area can give you more bottom than 40 inches.

By moving 3 times as far.

Exploiter8 · #5 10-17-2010, 03:43 PM

"Comments? Questions? Vitriol?"

VICODIN!

I'm a 51 year old that's been playing bass as a hobby since the late 70's. I have combo's that shouldn't be heard over drums and guitarists. I've replaced speakers without much regard to cubic volume. I've played large venues with "only" 130 watts and no PA support.

Everything sounds GREAT! Maybe I'm just lucky? I don't know. Half the fun of being involved in bands growing up was learning/experimenting with equipment and upgrades. I'm not saying people should throw money away doing trial and error, but sometimes armed with common sense and going with your gut instincts can produce pleasing results.

Just my 2 cents.

X8

RickenBoogie · #6 10-17-2010, 03:43 PM

+ millions-- had it not been for the wise and educated amp guru's on this site, I may well be still playing a Crate combo with mis-matched ext cab. And, I've seen what Jimmy's talking about ALOT, and alot recently. I don't get it either, and I'm no techie, just a player who wants to sound as good as possible.

OmnitzGarima · #7 10-17-2010, 03:52 PM

Do you think it's limited to TBers? I see examples of flawed reasoning everywhere, not just here.

JimmyM · #8 10-17-2010, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Passinwind

By moving 3 times as far.

that, as you know and i certainly don't have to tell you, is driver dependent. a neo 15 will definitely move 3x as far than a regular ceramic magnet 10. but then you start getting into issues about whether it's going to phase out the 410 to use a neo 115 under it, so i figure it's best not to even open that can of worms.

JimmyM · #9 10-17-2010, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exploiter8

"Comments? Questions? Vitriol?"

VICODIN!

I'm a 51 year old that's been playing bass as a hobby since the late 70's. I have combo's that shouldn't be heard over drums and guitarists. I've replaced speakers without much regard to cubic volume. I've played large venues with "only" 130 watts and no PA support.

Everything sounds GREAT! Maybe I'm just lucky? I don't know. Half the fun of being involved in bands growing up was learning/experimenting with equipment and upgrades. I'm not saying people should throw money away doing trial and error, but sometimes armed with common sense and going with your gut instincts can produce pleasing results.

Just my 2 cents.

X8

you and i came from a time where that was our only options. but now that other options have opened up, i see no reason not to take advantage of them when possible.

gus1894 · #10 10-17-2010, 03:58 PM

I've learned a great deal here on TB, but welcome to public forum.

Some people don't want to hear criticism, they take it as a direct assault on their whole person instead of the advice they actually asked for. I think that sometimes people are looking more for affirmation that they spent their money right the first (or second, or third) time.

On the other hand, there have been plenty of times I've stopped by and read a few threads and thought to myself: "That could have been said better." Folks often forget that on the other end people are reading the words, not hearing the inflection of the voice. And sometimes people just phrase it they way they do to incite reactions.

There are all sorts of people here on TB: old, young, middle age. Angry, spiritual, happy, smart@$$es, the list goes on - of course. You never know how the stew will taste when you add all the ingredients to the pot and stir.

We could probably all do to use the "Advanced" and "Preview Post" options a bit more frequently so we can see what we've typed before we make it public.

Jazzdogg · #11 10-17-2010, 03:59 PM

I've seen the scenario JimmyM describes numerous times on TB.

Some of the resentment may come when kids, poseurs, and morons are rebuffed by well informed posters who make little effort to speak diplomatically; why suffer fools gladly?

Another part of the phenomenon can be traced to the fact that TB is rife with uniformed and unqualified opinion; when a TBer states, sometimes quite pointedly, that "the emperor has no clothes," the reaction is usually one of resentment or outright snarkiness.

And of course, TB has its share of trolls who are fond of stirring things up for sport.

As hard as Paul and our TB moderators work to keep discourse somewhat civil, there's no shortage of folks who feel compelled to share opinions unsupported by fact, science, wisdom, or kindness.

JimmyM · #12 10-17-2010, 03:59 PM

i prefer to call it "tough love."

agreatheight · #13 10-17-2010, 03:59 PM

I like getting information as much as the next guy, but I don't like getting a finger shaken at me. So if science tells you that a 8x10 vertical array will disperse sound better than the standard 2x4x10 array, great, but don't talk down someone for using it. If science tells me that using 10s in a 6x10 will sound better than a 4x10 'mismatched' with a 15, so be it, but don't fault anyone for using that set up.

Look, I have been perfectly happy using a 4x10 a top a 1x18 for years and never a complaint about tone or dispersion, lol. I very often get compliments for my tone. So to wrap up, science is fine but don't wield it like weapon, OK?

Nashrakh · #14 10-17-2010, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoboChrist

I would like to hear how 15 inches of speaker area can give you more bottom than 40 inches.

Not sure if serious... I mean, come on, '15 inches of speaker area'.

Luckie · #15 10-17-2010, 04:00 PM

There's a general "advice backlash" in progress.
People like the comfortable feeling of being knowledgeable, and when you take that from them they tend to get indignant.
It's a silly thing. I take whatever advice I can get.

Passinwind · #16 10-17-2010, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyM

that, as you know and i certainly don't have to tell you, is driver dependent. a neo 15 will definitely move 3x as far than a regular ceramic magnet 10. but then you start getting into issues about whether it's going to phase out the 410 to use a neo 115 under it, so i figure it's best not to even open that can of worms.

Yep. I just tried to use the least possible words to convey the general idea for Mr. RoboChrist. Not all drivers can do that, but that's how the right ones can stack up like that, without getting into too much scary science.

Which gets us back to your OP. Would we collectively prefer no answer to that question, my answer, Jimmy's answer, a really full-form answer, or ??? And does it matter if the question is framed by a guy simply wanting to add one 15 under 4 tens, or wanting the best Ear Candy cab for metal ?

SactoBass · #17 10-17-2010, 04:01 PM

Hey JimmyM,

I completely agree with your original post in this thread.

It seems to be an unfortunate human trait to dislike being told when one is wrong. Nobody likes being told they are wrong, or being told they made a bad decision in the choice of gear they selected for themself.

Others simply resent those who have more education and knowledge (which is a result of insecurity).

I for one TOTALLY LOVE IT when someone points out I am wrong (provided, of course, that I am indeed wrong and they are right). I look at it as an opportunity to learn something.

The world is full of all types......always has been, always will be. There will always be those who scoff at specs and insist that specs mean nothing, and they just use their ears to determine what sounds good. If that works for them, great! Go forth and enjoy. I for one have the highest level of respect for the techie types who explain *why* something will sound good or bad. Being a civil engineer, I like data. Sure, I could design a bridge that would stay up without doing the calcs, but I would probably spend more money and use more materials than necessary. That's where the engineering comes into play. It is the engineering that results in achieving the objective in the most efficient manner. That's the trick. With respect to bass amps and cabs, achieving the tone goals (SPL, freq response, weight, etc.) requires engineering. Anybody can build a box and throw a speaker in it, but the performance won't be there unless it's engineered properly.

I am so thankful that people like Bill FM, Alex Claber and others are on Talkbass. I hope they remain here for many years to come, providing their useful information and suggestions........at no cost to us! Sheesh!! What a deal! It boggles my mind that some TB'ers choose to tell those helpful folks that they are "full of it." I guess ignorance is so blissful that some people would rather wallow in its comfort instead of opening their mind to learning. Oh well, it's their loss. We all make choices, and it is certainly within their right to keep their mind closed.

eyeballkid · #18 10-17-2010, 04:02 PM

i agree.. however, i do believe sometimes some folks come off as Know-It-Alls that have NO Humility and consider everyone else just WRONG.. THAT I RESENT.. but if everyone had the evenhanded attitude that you do Jimmy, I believe you would see that resentment evaporate.

I believe that alot of advice on hear is SPOT ON! some is dead wrong, and MOST is some where in between depending on the gear, application and player involved.

Either way Jimmy, keep up the good work.

Mr. Foxen · #19 10-17-2010, 04:05 PM

I like knowing the science, I don't like people who read the science, but totally don't understand it, and start declaring it innapropriately.

JimmyM · #20 10-17-2010, 04:12 PM

thanks eyeball...i will tell people if they ask for an opinion, for sure, but i do realize that some people like their "flawed" rigs and i do try to be a little more sensitive to that than i was when i first started hanging out here and learning all this stuff. and i'm by far not as knowledgeable as others on here. i have my strengths, but i also have plenty of weaknesses as well.

but humility or not, i am glad for everyone who contributes their knowledge, even if i have to duck into the bathroom for a good cry afterward

btw, i just had a general thought not directed to anyone in particular...what is the likelihood of getting anyone to participate in this thread who feels resentful when they're given advice based on solid scientific fact? and even if they do, will they admit it? probably not.