Does the type of amp you use make a difference if your going through the house?

Green Lantern · #1 11-04-2011, 09:11 AM

So many times you play your bass through your amp at a venue, and they have the output of your amp (XLR or quarter inch) that runs into the house system. In these cases, I am wondering if it really makes much of a difference if your using a Fender, GIK, Boogie, or Carvin bass amp. Granted you will dial any of these amps to get the sound your looking for. People are really hearing the sound of your bass guitar through the PA system with it's sub's.....no?

jimmy rocket · #2 11-04-2011, 09:25 AM

Each amp is probably going to have a little bit of flavor through the DI, and more if the DI is post EQ. Now, they can still mangle it pretty well at the board, but there is at least a bit of a difference in where you're starting from.

I'm pretty adamant about not running a DI from my amp to the house. I usually make the soundman earn his keep by at least digging out an SM57 and using a mic to the house. In that case I believe it makes a larger difference, but you're also figuring the speaker cabinet into the equation.

dvh · #3 11-04-2011, 09:33 AM

I'm convinced that, no, it does not make a difference. Your amp becomes your monitor, basically. That tone really only matters to you.

Even beyond that, the room, the number of people in it, other factors are going to colour "your" sound.

That's why I've come to believe that, for playing live, people spend way too much time and money on the "tone quest"

jimmy rocket · #4 11-04-2011, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dvh

I'm convinced that, no, it does not make a difference. Your amp becomes your monitor, basically. That tone really only matters to you.

Even beyond that, the room, the number of people in it, other factors are going to colour "your" sound.

That's why I've come to believe that, for playing live, people spend way too much time and money on the "tone quest"

at the end of the day... +1

BurningSkies · #5 11-04-2011, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green Lantern

So many times you play your bass through your amp at a venue, and they have the output of your amp (XLR or quarter inch) that runs into the house system. In these cases, I am wondering if it really makes much of a difference if your using a Fender, GIK, Boogie, or Carvin bass amp. Granted you will dial any of these amps to get the sound your looking for. People are really hearing the sound of your bass guitar through the PA system with it's sub's.....no?

My whole band depends on my sound, not just me...and we play a variety of rooms, so many times my rig is the FOH for the gig. Or, on many occasions I prefer to go DI post EQ, or a soundman wants to run a mic. In all of these settings my amp's tone is important.

HolmeBass · #6 11-04-2011, 09:59 AM

I think it matters for a number of reasons. First, many sound engineers do take the amp's DI and ask for post. They appreciate that I have some EQ settings I use to make my effects sound better, and for different songs. Even if that is not the case, a good sound engineer takes queues from how your rig sounds during sound check. Finally, how I sound on stage to myself has a significant impact on how I play. If I don't sound good and full I might play too hard- if I'm too loud or boomy I'll play more timidly. If it sounds just right I'll play with more sensitivity to the moment and more attention to the other members of the band.

Muttleybass · #7 11-04-2011, 10:05 AM

I think it depends on the size of the venue. In a club/pub, you will get some colour from your stage sound on the dance floor, plus having a good sound on stage is always inspiring for the band.

If your playing arenas, your amp does just become a sophisticated stage monitor.

rockstarbassist · #8 11-04-2011, 10:09 AM

If your amp's DI out goes Post-Preamp, then yes, it makes a difference.

edbass · #9 11-04-2011, 10:27 AM

It does to me.
I run mic'ed, just like nearly every gigging guitar player on the planet and a sizeable percentage of pro bass players.
You see a whole bunch of mic'ed up bass rigs (lot's of SVT's) on big league stages, and yes there is generally also a DI connected "just in case", but it seems rare that a weekend warrior will use a mic at all.
It's amazing that a casual player will spend so much money on gear chasing "their tone", and then just put their FOH sound in the hands of some schmo without thinking twice about it.

I'm a hypocrite though; as one of those "schmoes" myself I know that DI's are a lot easier. I do freebies for a lot of young starting out bands, and when I run sound I always encourage the bassist to use one, or even just use one as an "assumption" (Do you have your own DI or do you need one of mine?).
If someone asks for a mic I don't argue (too much), but it's extremely rare that someone does at the amateur level.

When I play it's mic all the way (DI for backup), I think my tone is just as important to me as any guitarist's tone is to them and want the FOH to hear what I actually sound like.

JimmyM · #10 11-04-2011, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dvh

I'm convinced that, no, it does not make a difference. Your amp becomes your monitor, basically. That tone really only matters to you.

Even beyond that, the room, the number of people in it, other factors are going to colour "your" sound.

That's why I've come to believe that, for playing live, people spend way too much time and money on the "tone quest"

cough(bullcrap)cough

Of course it makes a difference! Why? Bleed. If you turn up your amp to the point where you can hear it easily, then vocal mics can pick it up, and so can the room. So to think your amp lives in a vacuum where nobody but those onstage can hear it is wrong unless you've got it in an iso booth.

Plus, if you're like me and you only mic and refuse a DI, then it makes an even bigger difference and has even greater significance.

I don't know about you guys, but I certainly don't want to listen to my playing through some crappy amp. Thus, the tone quest is on, and it is good.

hennessybass · #11 11-04-2011, 10:38 AM

Having good sound on stage is key to the entire band sounding good. Like BurningSkies said, it's not just you that is listening to your bass rig on stage, the whole band is. And a lot of the audience as well, depending on the room and level of FOH support.

In my experience, stage monitors usually don't sound very good for bass, especially if you are competing with everything else in the monitor mix. And a lot of places don't really have the best PA systems, or two guys might be sharing one monitor mix. SO I think the amp on stage matters - maybe not so much for "tone" in the FOH, but it's just part of having a good sounding band. Might be different if you have an in-ear system, but I wouldn't know.

My band plays a lot without PA support, so my rig is providing bass to the whole stage and room. I also have a theory on sound mixing that is along the lines of less is more. The band should be able to sound good without pa support first, let everyone get dialed in, and then start adding the PA support - sparingly, as you need it. That why it is called "PA SUPPORT." It is there to support the way the band sounds. Most clubs crank volume up too loud, IMHO. Seems like most sound guys also mix everything like it's a HipHop show. Loud, Loud on the kick and bass. Most sound guys start with the kick, crank it, and then build from there. I realize they have to get a good sound, but get that sound, turn the volume down, and then bring it up as needed. Don't just set an arbitrary level on the kick and mix from there. I like more of a natural sound, I guess.

Sorry for the off topic rant.

BurningSkies · #12 11-04-2011, 11:26 AM

That is, if you get a soundman who will let there be bass in the monitors. In a lot of small and medium sized rooms, soundmen don't like to run bass on stage. Also, on more than a few occasions, they've put bass in a side fill or wedge only to spend all night with it distorting or cutting out or just disappearing at some point in time.

The guys in my band count on having a lot of bass on stage, and if its not there, things can get messy, especially when dealing with improvisational situations.

edbass · #13 11-04-2011, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hennessybass

Having good sound on stage is key to the entire band sounding good. Like BurningSkies said, it's not just you that is listening to your bass rig on stage, the whole band is. And a lot of the audience as well, depending on the room and level of FOH support.

In my experience, stage monitors usually don't sound very good for bass, especially if you are competing with everything else in the monitor mix. And a lot of places don't really have the best PA systems, or two guys might be sharing one monitor mix. SO I think the amp on stage matters - maybe not so much for "tone" in the FOH, but it's just part of having a good sounding band. Might be different if you have an in-ear system, but I wouldn't know.

My band plays a lot without PA support, so my rig is providing bass to the whole stage and room. I also have a theory on sound mixing that is along the lines of less is more. The band should be able to sound good without pa support first, let everyone get dialed in, and then start adding the PA support - sparingly, as you need it. That why it is called "PA SUPPORT." It is there to support the way the band sounds. Most clubs crank volume up too loud, IMHO. Seems like most sound guys also mix everything like it's a HipHop show. Loud, Loud on the kick and bass. Most sound guys start with the kick, crank it, and then build from there. I realize they have to get a good sound, but get that sound, turn the volume down, and then bring it up as needed. Don't just set an arbitrary level on the kick and mix from there. I like more of a natural sound, I guess.

Sorry for the off topic rant.

Amen! It's not like amplifying recorded music.
I've heard FOH "engineers" complaining that someone was "out of the mix completely" in 150 person venues.

Mo'Phat · #14 11-04-2011, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Plus, if you're like me and you only mic and refuse a DI, then it makes an even bigger difference and has even greater significance.

I do both. Pre EQ on the DI, and mic'd.

I can't depend on house monitors to give me what I crave in sound. So I get it with my amp. I'm also aware that 'my sound' through a Post EQ DI will be too colored for a board. I'll let the sound guy mix and match my Pre DI tone with a mic'd cabinet...but I always prefer to have MY amp and cabinet with me rather than using a house backline.

Jarrett · #15 11-04-2011, 01:55 PM

Interesting question.

I fall into the DI for house/amp for monitor crowd. I rarely need my amp to carry a room but when I do, it's no where near as clear as a DI signal through a nice PA with a knowledgeable soundman.

I'm curious as to reasoning for close miking one speaker out of larger set of speakers, especially given the quality of DI options today.

JimmyM · #16 11-04-2011, 02:04 PM

Because DI's suck. Too clean, not enough balls for my tastes, I like the sound of a speaker's output hitting the diaphragm, and I want the sound of my amp in the PA.

And don't any of you guys start with the "Micing doesn't put the sound of your amp in the PA" nonsense. It does if the soundman listens to your amp and tries to match the EQ with the mic. Also helps to have a good mic with some low end, which I do.

jimmy rocket · #17 11-04-2011, 02:04 PM

I use effects and I close mic primarily for accurate reproduction of the sounds that I am hearing out of my speakers. Distortion and fuzz effects can sound very different coming from a DI than through my cab with the tweeters off.

Jarrett · #18 11-04-2011, 02:09 PM

As long as you are happy with the end result, that's all that matters.

I wonder how many players have actually listened to themselves in the mix. I know lots of people are really concerned with how their amp sounds 4 feet away from them, but I wonder how much they concern themselves with whole mix out front and their role in it.

**bassybill** · #19 11-04-2011, 02:16 PM

This is a very personal thing. For me, the sound I get out of my bass when I go DI in my studio is my goal. My Markbass rig gets just that for me and my band on stage, as loud and clear as I like, and a good soundman can get that out front. No lack of balls, though - just warm, clean, crisp and clear bass guitar.

Other folks want their rig to be a much bigger part of their tone, and a good mic or two in front of their cab is the way to go for them if they can get that out to the house crowd that way. That works for me, too, but it's not really necessary as it's easier with a good DI.

JimmyM · #20 11-04-2011, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarrett

As long as you are happy with the end result, that's all that matters.

I wonder how many players have actually listened to themselves in the mix. I know lots of people are really concerned with how their amp sounds 4 feet away from them, but I wonder how much they concern themselves with whole mix out front and their role in it.

I go out during soundchecks and at least once during the course of a gig, usually more.

BTW, no offense, Bill. By "no balls," I meant "way too clean for my tastes." Sure, I can bring it back with the VT, but I prefer the mic.