Does "valve tone" come from the power amp?

Nickthebass · #1 01-16-2011, 12:15 PM

I spent some time last night watching live Jamiroquai videos and being more and more impressed by Paul Turner's tone (the playing is a given).

Now ... hand transplant aside I'm never going to sound like him but I think I'm turning into a fan of valves. I've tried a couple of heads that have valve preamps (SWR, Hartke) and wasn't that impressed which makes me think that the tone may be in the power amp.

I'm not looking for a really furry Jack Bruce tone or even a rock sound. A tight, warm, funky tone is what I want. Is there a light(ish) route I can go down or do I really have to join the dark side and tote around a big, heavy valve amp?

Hawaii Islander · #2 01-16-2011, 12:20 PM

Manufacturers are coming out with smaller affordable tube bass amps. Run it through FOH or bands PA or a seperate power amp to boost the tube sound if the amp isn't powerful enough on it's own. Tube saturation in the power amp section does add to the tube goodness.

http://www.ashdownmusic.com/bass/det...n=valve&ID=229

JimmyM · #3 01-16-2011, 12:20 PM

well paul uses a db750 live but he uses a b-15 in the studio so i guess he thinks there's something to them. is it 100% necessary to have power tubes? no. is it a whole lot richer sounding and more dynamic? hell yeah! at least i think so. i have never gotten that richness out of ss or hybrid gear of any kind, even the best of it.

Jim C · #4 01-16-2011, 12:27 PM

Only hybrid that has worked for me (and I've tried plenty) is the Mesa Walkabout although the Streamliner reviews from NAMM might add a 2nd possibility

RickenBoogie · #5 01-16-2011, 12:28 PM

Imo, the Mesa Walkabout is the #1 best sounding "tubey" hybrid amp ever made. However, when compared to a bass amp with a full tube pre/power section, it's a whole 'nother thing. The power section adds a richness, or fullness to the sound that so far, is not easily recreated with a hybrid design.

**nutdog** · #6 01-16-2011, 12:32 PM

So in order to get this rich, full, dynamic sound at lower volumes, can you use something like a DB750 turned down or do you have to have a 30 watt amp turned up? More simply, is the tube-iness of a high powered amp still tube-y when it's turned down, or do you need a low and a high powered tube amp for different volumes?

scotch · #7 01-16-2011, 12:51 PM

IMO, a "hybrid" amp (valve pre, ss power section) only gets you half way there & sometimes not at all. At least, if you're talking about archetypal "power tube saturation".

On the other hand, even some all-tube designs don't really 'saturate' all that much & exhibit high headroom.

Preamp tube 'clipping' & power amp tube 'saturation' sound a little different. Plus, many argue that it's the valve amps' output transformer that is responsible for much of that classic tone!

So, there's no easy answer, except that if you want to get that old-school sound with gritty texture and natural, musical compression- an all-tube amp turned up near it's full poitential will do it! There's other ways to "cheat" to get close (and nothing wrong with that), but nothing really sounds & feels like the real thing!

If that's what you're going for, make sure to get a head with power that is appropriate for the venues you play. A 300w SVT isn't the best choice if you want that 'cranked' sound, but play coffee-houses! On the other hand, an Ashdown 30w Drophead won't really be enough if you play clubs without good pa reinforcement.

For the variety of venues that I play, I need an assortment of amps to fulfill my tonal goals. I use a 300w Fender 300pro for outdoor festivals, arenas and such; a 200w Mesa Buster for theaters and large halls/clubs; and then I'm currently in-the-market for a super-low wattage 30-50w setup for small rooms (either a vintage B-15, Ashdown 30w combo or Little Basstard head & small cab).

bassboysam · #8 01-16-2011, 01:38 PM

Hybrid amps are all a marketing tool, I have never heard anything that can even come close to a tube head with the exception of the Walkabout. And I am convinced that the preamp in the walkabout is not the main factor, it's the MOSFET power section. Running a few volts across a 12ax7 will never sound anything like an all tube head. The tone is all from power section and transformers. In my opinion hybrids are some of the worst sounding amps out there with the exception of a very few. I would even say thar some of the tube emulating pedals sound better than the hybrids. Either go full tube or emulation, but hybrids are a cheap cop out.

All IMHO of course

PDGood · #9 01-16-2011, 01:53 PM

MarkBass makes the most tube-like solid state amp, imho. They have a hybrid model too, but I'm just talking about the plain ol' solid state LMlll. I'm currently running a vintage P bass through it and it's as warm and wonderful as anything you'd want to hear. Vintage wood is a huge factor to my ears.

When I was shopping for an amp I did stumble across a Kustom amp that was unbelievably warm (sorry, don't recall if it was all tube or just the pre, but I think it was just the pre.) There was really nothing else that I heard that was as warm as that amp, but I eventually decided against it because it was so extreme to me it would be a one trick pony. Beautiful, but not versatile. The LMlll probably won't satisfy a tube purist, but to me it has all the convenience of a solid state with a thick, chocolatey tone.

Mr. BassmanPT · #10 01-16-2011, 02:52 PM

what about the mesa titan v12? how about that for a tubey sound?

johnk_10 · #11 01-16-2011, 03:00 PM

for me, IME, even a walkabout isn't even close to a 100% tube head.

the closest that i've been able to get with a 'hybrid' is with either a UA 6176 or an Avalon VT737SP channel strip/preamp thru a crown xti2000 bridged (2K watts@4ohms). having that much power is so that the SS crown's 'tone' or characteristic doesn't enter in to the equation.

IMO, my UA/xti rig sounds VERY close to either of my SVT's.

seamonkey · #12 01-16-2011, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nickthebass

I spent some time last night watching live Jamiroquai videos and being more and more impressed by Paul Turner's tone (the playing is a given).

You're watching a video. How do you know what you hear has anything to do with the amp on stage? It could be a combinations of DI from the Bass, DI from the pre-amp, or MIC. Or just DI.

Paul Turner could play through just about anything and it's the sound engineers job to make it sound good out front or on a video.

bassboysam · #13 01-16-2011, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seamonkey

You're watching a video. How do you know what you hear has anything to do with the amp on stage? It could be a combinations of DI from the Bass, DI from the pre-amp, or MIC. Or just DI.

Paul Turner could play through just about anything and it's the sound engineers job to make it sound good out front or on a video.

This is also true.

vin*tone · #14 01-16-2011, 04:49 PM

I think people have different definitions of what "tubey" is. Most people seem to refer to a distorted/overdriven tone. I think that before saturation tube/SS is very hard to distinguish.

bassboysam · #15 01-16-2011, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vin*tone

I think people have different definitions of what "tubey" is. Most people seem to refer to a distorted/overdriven tone. I think that before saturation tube/SS is very hard to distinguish.

Not on stage. SS sits in a mix very differently I find. On a recording you are probably right though.

JimmyM · #16 01-16-2011, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seamonkey

You're watching a video. How do you know what you hear has anything to do with the amp on stage? It could be a combinations of DI from the Bass, DI from the pre-amp, or MIC. Or just DI.

Paul Turner could play through just about anything and it's the sound engineers job to make it sound good out front or on a video.

paul turner uses a reddi and a mic'ed b-15 in the studio most of the time, though i would agree he sounds good on anything.

as for the op's questions, i happen to love love love tube amps at low volumes as well as high, and i believe it makes a positive difference for the better no matter whether it's barely on or screaming. i just played a gig at the mohegan sun arena using a newish svt-cl/810e that they provided for me, and i barely had it on. the only thing that sucked was having to lay the cab on the floor due to a horn section right behind me, but the sound was awesome.

**nutdog** · #17 01-16-2011, 08:04 PM

I don't think I'm looking for the overdriven tone. I've played for 20+ years on solidstate. I got an NV215 and folks on here say it sounds great with tubes. But they talk about V8s and SVTs and I usually play it in church. I contemplate getting a used tube amp to satisfy my curiosity but I wonder if it would be best to have 30-100 watts or 300 or so for the 3 or 4 times a year I take it outdoors.

And if I got the big one, would I notice a big difference over the TF550b I'm using now for the 90% of the time I'm not loud. At least to justify the added weight and maintenance.

And in regard to micing the amp and PA support, if you amplify the tube amp with a SS PA, is it still tube-y?

flyingfinbar · #18 01-16-2011, 08:12 PM

I immediately fell in love when I borrowed a friends SVT...less than a week later, I had my own! There's just something about how it sits in a band setting, it's really special.

JimmyM · #19 01-16-2011, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nutdog

I don't think I'm looking for the overdriven tone. I've played for 20+ years on solidstate. I got an NV215 and folks on here say it sounds great with tubes. But they talk about V8s and SVTs and I usually play it in church. I contemplate getting a used tube amp to satisfy my curiosity but I wonder if it would be best to have 30-100 watts or 300 or so for the 3 or 4 times a year I take it outdoors.

And if I got the big one, would I notice a big difference over the TF550b I'm using now for the 90% of the time I'm not loud. At least to justify the added weight and maintenance.

And in regard to micing the amp and PA support, if you amplify the tube amp with a SS PA, is it still tube-y?

of course it is!

would YOU notice a big difference? maybe, maybe not. do you need 300w in your situation? most likely not. those are variables that you'll have to decide on yourself.

**nutdog** · #20 01-17-2011, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyM

those are variables that you'll have to decide on yourself.

You won't do it for me?

I was leaning toward the lower end. A 50 watt old traynor and an Ampeg V2 are close by fairly cheap but I think I may wait for something in the 100 watt range.

But more likely, I'll probably skip it all together, save the hassle and be happy as is. Unless something irresistible shows up on CL.

Thanks.