The Dreaded "Smile" EQ

[BridgeS]

I've been having major issues with my EQ on my bass for too long now. I've never been able to find my ideal tone, I know what it sounds like in my head but I can't seem to make it work. It's basically the same ampeg tone they use on all recordings, that kind of grindy tone that's done to death, but I still love it.

Most sites and blogs says the "Frown" EQ options in the best way to go, but even with my tone flat and the EQ set to frown, it sounds worse than anything I can even explain. Almost like somebody taking a dump then micing it through a distortion pedal. The only playable setting I've found is the "smile shaped" EQ with mids cut and treble just above flat with the "bright" button in.


Here's my gear: I play C G C F, genre is Screamo, think Metal almost. Also I play with my fingers.

Ampeg SVT 4 Pro
Tech 21 SANSAMP: Don't really use this anymore since it's almost like an SVT EQ pedal anyways. Keep it around in case my rig blows.
Ampeg 810E

Ibanez SRX Bass Active: 4 string, love this thing,
Epiphone Thunderbird: Emergency bass, not very nice to play, feels like I'm playing an overweight toy.

I had a MusicMan Stingray 5 string, but not only was it the bulkiest crappiest tone I've ever had the displeasure of using, I really wanted to get a 4 string to that I could play "open" breakdowns.

Also I just basically gave away my 1001 rb-2 as no matter what I did it felt completely useless.

Also I gave my neo 4x12 GK cab to my keyboard/synth player as it sounds bad when trying to produce any low end.

I know I sound like a complete noob but I know enough about bass that i SHOULD unsterand this. I've been playing for 10 years, competed in many jazz competitions (haha now doing screamo), won some scholarships for school, yada yada. Not bragging or anything just saying as far as playing goes I know what I'm doing (minus how to find my tone).


Sorry for the wall of text!
It's cool to finally stop lurking these forums and post something!

P.S. Just had all my gear checked out, everything is working fine, tubes are new, speakers are great, and my bass is set up with the ideal action for my playing.

[Jim Nazium]

I just have a couple of things to say:

1. Are you evaluating your sound in the mix with your band, or while playing solo? It makes a big difference. Boosting the low mids can help iff you have to cut through a loud, distorted guitar (or two).

2. There ain't no law that says the frown EQ shape is right. If you like the sound of the EQ smile, rock it.

OK, one more:
3. Experiment with some different strings. It's cheap and has a huge effect on tone.

Good luck!

[mambo4]

Originally Posted by BridgeS

Ampeg SVT 4 Pro
Ampeg 810E
MusicMan Stingray 5 string
I've been playing for 10 years,

all this and you can't get a tone you like?
this may sound like a joke, but so does your post, so:
Maybe your hearing is the problem.

Or maybe the down tuning makes your strings too noodle-floppy for the tone you want.

[Jim Nazium]

Originally Posted by mambo4

all this and you can't get a tone you like?
this may sound like a joke, but so does your post, so:
Maybe your hearing is the problem.

Or maybe the down tuning makes your strings too noodle-floppy for the tone you want.

Helpful post of the day

[Pacman]

Moved to Amps.

[mambo4]

You're right it was unhelpful and a bit snotty, my apologies.

Jim Nazium's points are good to consider.
Don't waste time developing your tone alone in your bedroom: what matters is how it sits in the mix, live or recorded.
the scooped EQ has a bad rap because it became too trendy and the epitome of 'bedroom' tone : sounds great alone, but can be useless in a mix.

Given your list of gear, there is no reason you shouldn't be able to achieve a great tone.

In the mix, how you sound has as much to do with the rest of the band's EQ as your own. Other instruments may 'cover up' parts of your tone.
It may be time to discuss EQing with your band as whole.

I'd suggest hiting a band rehearsal setting every EQ flat , from your bass to the amp, even going passive on the bass if you can, and spend enough time just listenign for the tone that does get though to sink in.
Then begin by adjusting the gain and voulme : more preamp gain for "dirt" and volume to comensate. As the preamp gain drives the tuibes more, it will change the EQ, so leave evrything flat and listen.

If the tone you want is " basically the same ampeg tone they use on all recordings"
you should realize that live is also not the same as recorded, and what we hear on records may not be possible live.

The room you are playing in also can have a huge effect on your tone. Many experienced players leave the amp flat and view the EQ section as somethign to compensate for specific rooms.

SVT4 pro has a solid state power section: some of that classic grind comes from an all tube power section as well, so maybe look at the SVT classic line.

my comment about the down tunign was only half sarcastic. As Jim Naziam said, the strings have much to do with it.
Experiment with standard tuning , or look for strings designed for downtuning, and see what difference they make.

I'd also suggest, rather than referencing recordings, seeing live shows and researching other's tones you like.

[BridgeS]

Hey thx for the answers people.

My tone is now about 80% of what I want with the Smile EQ. When I'm in studio, or browsing the internet everywhere says that I should just crank the mids and I'll get this tone. However to my experience the exact opposite has been the case. I'm just wondering if there was something I was doing wrong.

I'm really interested in this string option though. I've been using D'addario nickel round (basically the standard/most popular for awhile). Would strings would you recommend? Ernie balls are way too light and bright for me.

[GrowlerBox]

I'm sure it's not what you're doing, but I think a potential issue with graphic equalisers is that they lend themselves to being set according to a visual pattern rather than an acoustic one. This is the beauty of a semi-parametric setup for me -- it allows you to tun up a band, then "audition" the frequencies within the range of that band until you like where it's at. I often have the low-mids slightly boosted and the upper-mids cut a bit -- kind a "smirk" if it were a graphic arrangement.

Try setting everything flat, then playing some riffs/lines adjusting one channel at a time through its full range. You may end up with a weird looking EQ, but it could be the tone you're after.

[BridgeS]

Hey Mambo, I took your first comment as humour so no worries there! Thx for this thought out response!

One thing you've got me thinking about is definitely the room. When I'm playing shows my tone always sounds way better and less farty then in the jam space. So maybe that's a major concern.

Also I've tried the SVT but it's such a one trick pony, although it's an amazing trick. I got a sweet deal on an SVT 4 PRO USA made and it sounded relatively the same. Also the SVT Classic gets destroyed on tours, they're good if you're famous and your road casescan withstand nuclear strikes, but they explode when there getting dragged around the country in a uhaul filled with other random heavy objects

[lethargytartare]

Echoing the "tone in the mix" thing -- it's so classic that what we like when rehearsing alone might not sound well at all with the band (from the audience's perspective), and vice versa.

But also, technique has a huge impact on your tone. I remember several years ago I was working with my teacher/buddy. I was not happy with my tone, yadda yadda yadda. He took my bass and made it sound better than I ever "could." It was a nice reminder that you and your technique are integral parts of the resulting tone you create.

Good luck, man!

ltt

[BridgeS]

Yeah I here you, the biggest positive change for me so far with the new amp is the compression option. I'm a very staccato player and the compression has made me sound more like a hybrid between a pick and finger style (ie. adding some more sustain and legato). Played Jazz too long, smashing strings to Funk and what not haha.

[4-string]

First, you should completely disregard what anyone says about smilie face EQ. Yes, it has been misused alot (think Fieldy), but it all depends on the bass, cab, the amps inherent tone, your fingers, room, type of music etc...it just seems so fashionable to keep everything flat, or if you really have balls even boost the mids (frown EQ).

IMO, learning how to dial in a tone you like in a bedroom setting is a good thing. If you struggle to dial it in, how would you manage that in a band setting? Use all those knobs and sliders and experiment, you can always go back. When you've found something you like, you will probably learn real quick that your favourite setting might disappear in a band mix a bit. Not to worry, back to the EQ! If you pretty much know what you want and have found it on when you play solo, you know what you are after and will find it with the band as well.

As said, there are so many factors to consider, but I'll give you an idea of how I like to do things: a tad cut in the mids around 400-450hz or so, then boost the low mids a little around 120-200hz approx. Usually a bit cut of the deepest lows, too. Depending on the bass I might boost the high mids a bit too, usually somewhere between 800hz and 1.4khz. Again, depending on how hissy the amp is I might also cut a tad of the upper treble. I guess this would be an S or snake EQ? Give it a try - if you don't like it, no big deal, just dial in something else and be happy that you have tried something different.

[BridgeS]

Thx 4-string that was a great response.

I have another question though, is it ok that I like my bass tone to somewhat disapear in the mix. Basically the tone I have right now when the guitars and I play sounds like one heavy ass guitar playing a riff, rather than a bass and a guitar playing the same riff, don't know if this makes sense to anyone.

[BridgeS]

Also I just thought of a good example of the bass tone I want. Remember the open notes at the beginning on "Running with the Devil" by Van Halen, yeah that's sick tone.

[honeyiscool]

Your problem is the D'Addario nickels IMO.

They have an annoying midrange honk that you kind of HAVE to EQ out.

I like the Fender nickels for rounds and Rotosound monel for flats.

[lethargytartare]

Originally Posted by BridgeS

...is it ok that I like my bass tone to somewhat disapear in the mix. Basically the tone I have right now when the guitars and I play sounds like one heavy ass guitar playing a riff, rather than a bass and a guitar playing the same riff, don't know if this makes sense to anyone.

Is it ok? That's up to you -- are you ok if your playing disappears in the mix. For me -- no -- if I'm not coming through then I'm not impacting the final product effectively. And if people come to watch you play, THEY will notice that you can't be heard...so you can't get your own groupies :-)

Seriously, though -- when the band is playing, you want to be present in the right amount. What's "right" depends on the band and you. If a band wanted you to blur in behind the guitars, that's their right -- but you might not want to play with them for that reason. If you had a tone that sounded awful in the mix, but you were unwilling to compromise, they might kick you out. Ideally, all of the members will tweak their tones to find a point where everything is working together to create a total sound that is what everyone is happy with.

So back to your question -- it COULD BE ok, if you and the band are happy with it that way. For most bands and musicians I've known, nobody wants the bass to disappear.

[JimiLL]

Start off with everything flat.... turn off the graphic eq for now......have someone start turning the midrange up slowly as you play (with the rest of the band VERY IMPORTANT), until the everything becomes defined well, but not clanky. Then turn up the bass until you like the sound, maybe a little more mids after that, then clean it up and clarify things with a little does of treble.

Should spend quite a bit of time with just that section of eq before even going to the graphic. And one thing ive learned through the years of playing in rock....sometimes to get a better sound, you need to turn LESS knobs a SHORTER distance.

[lethargytartare]

I'll throw this in too: I found a wireless unit and an onboard 3+ band preamp invaluable when learning about my tone. When we would play shows, I could have my amp flat, walk out into the room, and play, adjust my bass's tone, play, and hear what the audience would hear. It was fun, but also very very informative.

I also remember one early show for me where we had a fantastic sound guy. During sound check, I thought he was mixing my bass WAY high (too much treble or high-mids)...until I got off the stage and went to the middle of the floor while the whole band was playing...incredible difference. That sound guy knew his room, and knew how to mix a band!

So just more tools. And a reminder that there are many dimensions to the whole tone thing...

[BridgeS]

I found out the main problem, it was the D'addario strings. They are completely useless compared to my new DR DDT. HUGE difference, will never buy those again. The rest is the room, the room I play just sounds like garbage. I mean there are at least 12 half stack guitar cabs in there, 4 drum kits, 8 bass cabs, just a stupid amount of gear.

Also when I meant disapear in the mix, I didn't mean disapear completely. I meant it more like when your listening to classical music where it all sounds like one instrument and nothing really stands out unless you listen for it. It's kind of hard to explain well. Basically trebly bass sounds terrible when you can hear it cutting through everything, but you can't feel it. It has to be a nice blend of feeling the tone, and hearing the tone. Also I'm in a 6 piece band so competing for parts just gets messy.

Thx for the great help!

[lethargytartare]

Congrats on finding some improvements!! Like I said, tons of variables to play with...

Briefly:

Originally Posted by BridgeS

...Also when I meant disapear in the mix, I didn't mean disapear completely. I meant it more like when your listening to classical music where it all sounds like one instrument and nothing really stands out unless you listen for it. It's kind of hard to explain well.

Nah, that's what I got from your earlier post. And that's what I would consider "disappearing." Any instrument can REALLY disappear, but I find it just as undesirable if the bass just blurs into the rest of the sound.

Originally Posted by BridgeS

Basically trebly bass sounds terrible when you can hear it cutting through everything, but you can't feel it. It has to be a nice blend of feeling the tone, and hearing the tone.

Not sure if that was specifically in reference to my anecdote, but if it was, all I can say is you had to be there -- it was unreal how the full mix sounded. It sounded nice and thumpy, very present...I never would have believed it after the sound check, but when I stood in the room, it was wicked! It also deepened my respect for a quality sound man!

Originally Posted by BridgeS

Also I'm in a 6 piece band so competing for parts just gets messy.

THAT I can't imagine lol!! But I bet you'll get REALLY good practice at finding ranges for your tone to fit in!

Rock on, man!

ltt