Drowning Some Guitars

Old Fart · #1 01-17-2012, 07:07 PM

I am posting this question here because it is amp-related, even though it is not about GAS or any specific amp brand and model. Hopefully this forum is about more than just just product reviews.

I have an Ampeg BA-115 HPT. 220 watts. One 15" speaker.

One of our guitarists has some sort of Fender Hot Rod combo thingie with FOUR 10" speakers. I used to think Fender Twin Reverbs and Sunn Solos II's were loud, back in the day. This thing is obnoxious.

Another guitarist plays an old Music Man combo that makes a LOT of sound for its size.

The drummer is Bam-Bam. She uses the longest drum sticks I have ever seen in my life and she tends to be pretty darned loud. She is a "substantial" girl and she plays Big Rock style.

As a consequence, I get drowned out. This is kind of a bummer since I am really starting to come back up to speed on my bass playing and the band would sound better if I had more appropriate equipment. We do not run much besides vocals through our PA.

Okay, so here comes the question. When I get into a position to fix my amp problem so that I can compete in whatever volume war erupts, I can predict it now......the guitards are going to complain I am too loud. They love the spotlight and they are not into sharing. The question: Aren't I in a tonal range that is way different from theirs, such that I really don't compete with them. I mean sure, if I became VERY VERY loud, then sure.....I could potentially drown out everything. But if I match my volume level to the drummer, then can I ignore their complaints?

lowfreq33 · #2 01-17-2012, 07:18 PM

How much do you like this band? Because it's a pretty safe bet that if they're already trying to blast each other out of the water it's just going to get worse when you join in. Huge arguments will ensue, someone will make a denigrating comment about you being "just" the bass player, tempers will flare, and you'll end up quitting in a fit of rage.

Or you could save yourself the trouble, quit now, and find some more considerate (and probably more talented) people to play with.

Seriously.

audiomitch · #3 01-17-2012, 07:24 PM

Have you complained to them about their obnoxious volumes and tone? Or does it only work one way?

Old Fart · #4 01-17-2012, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lowfreq33

.....quit now, and find some more considerate (and probably more talented) people to play with.

Seriously.

This is underway.

JSK5String · #5 01-17-2012, 07:28 PM

You should check out the thread Sundogue started ages ago, "Confessions of a Flat Wound Convert.". It will change your line of thought and perhaps your entire foundation for playing. It did mine...

Edword · #6 01-17-2012, 07:29 PM

I guess another approach would be to get a rig similar to this, and turn up as needed until you can no longer hear their complaints. JMO

Old Fart · #7 01-17-2012, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by audiomitch

Have you complained to them about their obnoxious volumes and tone? Or does it only work one way?

We have talked about the volume problem ad nauseum. We continue to have two LOUD guitarists whose playing cannot be heard because their sound is a garbled mess. They cannot seem to learn that less is more. Perhaps my next bass rig can at least bring the parties to the bargaining table.

scottfeldstein · #8 01-17-2012, 07:31 PM

Those little Fender combos are the worst. I knew a guy who had a Hot Rod Deluxe, 40w into a single 12" speaker. He could crank that thing to frightening, breathtaking volumes. Even when I pushed 500w into a big 8x10 cab, I struggled to be heard over him and the drummer (who was also ridiculously loud).

Russell L · #9 01-17-2012, 07:33 PM

Just wait til they start micing the bass drum too deep and loud. I quit playing on a tune one night and no one even noticed. I have since quit that band. I could never hear myself, no matter how much I complained. My new band is quite different in that respect, and I'm working with two others that are good, too. Complain and see how they react. I bet you won't get them to change. I'm sick of playing with folks who overplay. Life's too short.

**Old Joe** · #10 01-17-2012, 07:35 PM

A curious thing about the bass, if you go a mile away from the amp you'll probably only hear yourself. Maybe a bit of the drums.

I got nothing else to add.

JimWasHere · #11 01-17-2012, 07:41 PM

It might be that they legitimately can't hear themselves well enough. If the guitar amp is pointed at the guitar player's knees, then they're going to turn up too much. Perhaps some creative amp-pointing, or one of those tiltback amp stands? The important thing in the end is what the mix is on the audience side of the room, and I'm making a guess that that may be where part of the trouble is.

In the end though, if you've talked to them about it, and they aren't willing to turn down/adjust the mix, then there's probably a better opportunity out there somewhere.

Russell L · #12 01-17-2012, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimWasHere

It might be that they legitimately can't hear themselves well enough. If the guitar amp is pointed at the guitar player's knees, then they're going to turn up too much. Perhaps some creative amp-pointing, or one of those tiltback amp stands? The important thing in the end is what the mix is on the audience side of the room, and I'm making a guess that that may be where part of the trouble is.

In the end though, if you've talked to them about it, and they aren't willing to turn down/adjust the mix, then there's probably a better opportunity out there somewhere.

There's a guitar player at the blues jam who points his little amp straight up at himself, and complains that he can't hear himself. Man, when he hits some high notes it will make me lose my balance. I had to move over away from him. Why does everything have to be so damn loud?

seedokebass · #13 01-17-2012, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottfeldstein

Those little Fender combos are the worst. I knew a guy who had a Hot Rod Deluxe, 40w into a single 12" speaker. He could crank that thing to frightening, breathtaking volumes. Even when I pushed 500w into a big 8x10 cab, I struggled to be heard over him and the drummer (who was also ridiculously loud).

My guitarist has a 2x12 version. And yes, it gets loud! I was using a 750 watt head into an Ampeg fridge, and had to crank it up fairly loud to keep up.

Thankfully, he's not a diva about volume and is considering a smaller amp

Old Fart · #14 01-17-2012, 08:19 PM

Thanks, fellow bassists. I will continue to plan for a rig upgrade, and also look at other projects. But I gotta say one thing that I know for sure....

Music is a BLAST. I should have never left it, for as long as I did. I LOVE doing music. LOVE IT!

Luv2Pla4U · #15 01-17-2012, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russell L

Why does everything have to be so damn loud?

Two words: Hearing Loss. These other players probably already suffer from it, and if you compete with them you'll be next. Save yourself while you can and leave, once it's gone you can never get it back.

JimWasHere · #16 01-17-2012, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Fart

One of our guitarists has some sort of Fender Hot Rod combo thingie with FOUR 10" speakers.

I just got to looking at which particular amp you were complaining about. A few months ago we had a group bring one of these things in to the theater I work at (1000 seat, full pa support) except it was the 1x12 version of it. This guy had to have it at the volume he liked, plus more of it back at him in his monitor, and it still ended up not going through foh unless he was soloing. It's a remarkably loud little box. I could definitely see someone having a hard time competing with it, and quite frankly, I'm surprised your drummer hasn't started using 2x4s yet

billfitzmaurice · #17 01-17-2012, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Fart

We have talked about the volume problem ad nauseum. We continue to have two LOUD guitarists whose playing cannot be heard because their sound is a garbled mess. They cannot seem to learn that less is more.

Children they be. Move on to adult company.

scottfeldstein · #18 01-17-2012, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Fart

But I gotta say one thing that I know for sure....

Music is a BLAST. I should have never left it, for as long as I did. I LOVE doing music. LOVE IT!

I second that. I left it for 10-15 years. Just 7 months back into it.

Funny. I also hooked up with some really loud young guys at first. Maybe that's just what you do when you're an old guy getting back into music.

**B-string** · #19 01-17-2012, 08:38 PM

I thought this was a take-off on the lawyer joke: What do you call a guitarist up to his neck in water? Not enough darn water.
[edit opps forgot]

T-Bird · #20 01-17-2012, 08:39 PM

Hi.

A BIG + for finding more reasonable people to play with.

I didn't care about it much until I moved and begun to search a new band to play with. Before the drummer came to the rehearsal, it was great. Everyone, including me, straight into PA, decent level, great dynamics, all and all a pleasurable experience.

Enter the drummer. Young hot-head playing with heavy sticks, using earplugs, a hellishly loud outro in every tune. Constant feedback from the mics, the dynamics out the window... You get the point.

I lasted 3 rehearsals, AND I'M GLAD I DID BAIL OUT.

As for the rig upgrade, all things being equal, You need 3 times the wattage and 3 times the speaker area to be level with a guitarist. Since it sounds that things are not quite equal, aim for 10 times the wattage and 10 times the speaker area.

And still, if the guitarist wants to do so, they'll drown You with their 50W (tube) amp.

Do the math and decide what's the reasonable thing to do.

Regards
Sam