Ears, Eyes and Brains

[Sundogue]

Listen with your ears, read with your eyes, and think with your brain. It's ALL good.

This 'bickering' about posting data versus "if it sounds good it is good" nonsense is getting beyond ridiculous. And I mean in ALL threads about cabs...particularly new cab designs.

There is a huge difference between opinion and fact. Shocking I know and it really should be obvious, but apparently it isn't.

One man's opinion of the tonal output of any given cab is different than another. It is highly subjective given the rest of the equipment used with said cabs, not to mention the myriad of personal preferences and desires in tone. They are not facts...just opinion. We ALL have opinions, every one of us. And it varies greatly from one to another. It's really cool when someone is fired up about a new cab they got. It's human nature to be proud of some new equipment that trips your trigger. And if you and others (even many others) absolutely LOVE it, well that is a wonderful thing. But it's still only your opinion, which believe it or not, may not be enough information for others who want to make a choice about possibly buying it too.

Some understand data and want truthful specs on cabs few have heard before. Without hearing a cab, relying solely on opinions of others is a total crapshoot. So some people want/need/desire the data because (believe it or not) they can actually understand it to the point where it can render many opinions invalid as to said cabs ability to produce what is being glowingly reviewed (e.g.- "Man this cab has tons of low end" - about a cab where the data shows it's got almost nothing for output below 100Hz). When the data proves it, the opinion writers then defend their opinion by saying low end isn't important anyway because it's just mud. Opinion versus fact.

Knowing the facts does NOT invalidate your own opinion and you can still love your cab's tone, even when others (armed with the facts) know it isn't going to work for them.

I find it odd when someone loves a cab so much that they don't want to know the facts. Why? Afraid your opinion might not be worth the time it took to type it up for all to see? Or are you unable to look away and ignore the data posted? Is it like a car wreck, where you find yourself hypnotically drawn into the same tired old argument about "Data Vs. Hearing"?

Post the data (if you have it) so those that are knowledgeable to understand it, can see what the cabs are actually capable of doing. NOTE: I didn't say data will tell anyone whether or not the tone will be pleasing. It's only about the cab's capabilities given the parameters of it's design.

Why should those who don't care about data, force those who do want the data, to not have it available? Why the endless, silly arguments?

Post both...data and opinions. That will satisfy everyone. Those who don't care about objective data can ignore it, and those who don't care about subjective opinions can ignore the opinions. Win/Win for everyone and we can all stop fighting about the importance of either.

Unless you guys actually dig the fighting. I don't. It's petty and selfish. How on earth can we have informative dialog about new gear if only half the information is allowed to be presented? I like to read people's opinions AND I like the facts. Both allow me to make an informed choice.

Of course, all of this is just my opinion. I have no facts to back it up, other than the many threads posted where this continually pops up. IMO...of course.

Carry on.

[rpsands]

It's easy to forget that there are data points that explain why people like XYZ.

There are negative connotations attached to data elements like "does not have significant output under 100hz." That can be a negative thing for bass but isn't for everyone, so it's not implicitly bad. It just is.

The biggest thing I think we need to do is work as a group to remove the value judgments about data and talk in terms of what it means.

[will33]

Well said. Seeing measurements of what your stuff is doing won't change how it sounds....it's already built.

[smogg]

LMAO...well played good sir.
I like toast with butter and jam. But that is just MY opinion, I have no facts to back it up other than I am out of toast.

[Sundogue]

Originally Posted by rpsands

It's easy to forget that there are data points that explain why people like XYZ.

There are negative connotations attached to data elements like "does not have significant output under 100hz." That can be a negative thing for bass but isn't for everyone, so it's not implicitly bad. It just is.

The biggest thing I think we need to do is work as a group to remove the value judgments about data and talk in terms of what it means.

Yeah, I just threw out the "below 100Hz" for an example. How many threads have been posted bragging about a cab and it's ability to handle low end, only to be followed up months later by the same guy complaining how it's farting out or blown? Just an example.

Facts and opinions are BOTH equally invaluable...just for different reasons and I see no reason for it to be causing all the fighting. It detracts from the actual discussion.

[smogg]

Originally Posted by rpsands

It's easy to forget that there are data points that explain why people like XYZ.

There are negative connotations attached to data elements like "does not have significant output under 100hz." That can be a negative thing for bass but isn't for everyone, so it's not implicitly bad. It just is.

The biggest thing I think we need to do is work as a group to remove the value judgments about data and talk in terms of what it means.

Originally Posted by Sundogue

Yeah, I just threw out the "below 100Hz" for an example. How many threads have been posted bragging about a cab and it's ability to handle low end, only to be followed up months later by the same guy complaining how it's farting out or blown? Just an example.

Facts and opinions are BOTH equally invaluable...just for different reasons and I see no reason for it to be causing all the fighting. It detracts from the actual discussion.

Ya it's all good as long as the tech-heads don't try to come off as all condescending and self righteous to the less (tech/spec) educated. If they are genuinely helpful then it's a good thing.
Just an observation not a statement of fact.

[will33]

Originally Posted by Sundogue

Yeah, I just threw out the "below 100Hz" for an example. How many threads have been posted bragging about a cab and it's ability to handle low end, only to be followed up months later by the same guy complaining how it's farting out or blown? Just an example.

Facts and opinions are BOTH equally invaluable...just for different reasons and I see no reason for it to be causing all the fighting. It detracts from the actual discussion.

A little consumer education would go a long way...as in "how do these numbers translate to the real world".

Until then, it'll just be more "my Dad can beat up your Dad".

[B-string]

Just drink the cool-aid, it is supposed to cure it all

[nostatic]

Data and "facts" are two very different things. And context is everything.

[Chef]

Conversely; why should folks who don't care about data have it forced on them?

There ought to be room for both sides to co-exist peacefully.

Originally Posted by Sundogue

Why should those who don't care about data, force those who do want the data, to not have it available? Why the endless, silly arguments?



Carry on.

[jnewmark]

Would any of you think that maybe a sub forum, called "Tech Talk " , or something like that would be good ? I've made the suggestion before. At least, it would create a forum for Arjank and others who really love to get into the nuts and bolts of testing cabs, to discuss this stuff without befuddling the rest of us who don't have the brain power, or desire to understand it, but are more interested in real life experience when the cab actually gets out of the lab, and into the world of gigging. Believe me, I have tried to understand this stuff, and thought I was making the right choice when having cabs built for me, only to be disappointed on the gig because it certainly did'nt have the sound I wanted, regardless of whether it was hitting frequencies below 50 hz.

[seamonkey]

+1
If you like jam, it's your right to know what the sugar and sodium content are, as well as how much of the featured ingredient are actually included.

There are a lot of bogus designs, and there are some truly amazing designs. The science works for both.

Some people read music and can look at a piece of music and hear it in their head. Some people don't read and get by fine. Some people do both. It doesn't hurt to have the printed music for those who want it.

[Sundogue]

Originally Posted by Chef

Conversely; why should folks who don't care about data have it forced on them?

There ought to be room for both sides to co-exist peacefully.

Because you can't ignore what isn't there.

Those who don't want data can ignore it. Those who want data can ignore opinions but people can't scroll past data that isn't presented, can they?

[rpsands]

Moving any technical discussion of amps/cabs to another forum would pretty much make me turn in my account except to post in the classifieds.

This forum is already watered down enough with the sheer number of forums -- taking one section I like and splitting it into two would kill it.

Just my two cents.

[smogg]

Originally Posted by jnewmark

Would any of you think that maybe a sub forum, called "Tech Talk " , or something like that would be good ? I've made the suggestion before. At least, it would create a forum for Arjank and others who really love to get into the nuts and bolts of testing cabs, to discuss this stuff without befuddling the rest of us who don't have the brain power, or desire to understand it, but are more interested in real life experience when the cab actually gets out of the lab, and into the world of gigging. Believe me, I have tried to understand this stuff, and thought I was making the right choice when having cabs built for me, only to be disappointed on the gig because it certainly did'nt have the sound I wanted, regardless of whether it was hitting frequencies below 50 hz.

Yes a "tech" section is a great idea. IMO it would be benificial as well as educational.

Originally Posted by seamonkey

+1
If you like jam, it's your right to know what the sugar and sodium content are, as well as how much of the featured ingredient are actually included.

There are a lot of bogus designs, and there are some truly amazing designs. The science works for both.

Some people read music and can look at a piece of music and hear it in their head. Some people don't read and get by fine. Some people do both. It doesn't hurt to have the printed music for those who want it.

Agreed, honest disclosure is a good thing.

[smogg]

Originally Posted by rpsands

Moving any technical discussion of amps/cabs to another forum would pretty much make me turn in my account except to post in the classifieds.

This forum is already watered down enough with the sheer number of forums -- taking one section I like and splitting it into two would kill it.

Just my two cents.

Hmmm....never thought of it that way.

[chucko58]

Originally Posted by Chef

Conversely; why should folks who don't care about data have it forced on them?

You don't have to pay attention when someone rationally explains why highly hyped piece of gear X can't possibly do what is claimed. That's on you.

I like to see facts, myself. I like even more knowing how the numbers relate to what I hear. There is no substitute for personal experience, of course.

And I prefer that if someone is pulling a fast one on uninformed - or deliberately ignorant - buyers, the informed will be able to say "the emperor has no clothes".

[Jim C]

The thing I find interesting is blanket responses on cabinets when they are being used by different people with different amps, basses, and hugely different room acoustics.

Last night's gig was a boomy crappy room; I don't think any combinmation of gear would have been great; certain gear FOR THAT PARTICULAR ROOM would have worked better than others.

With that said, I have bought equipment sight unseen based on reviews from TB'ers that have similar tastes and opinions as I. In fact 5 of you guys who have posted above are on my "trusted reviewer list" and have influenced my buying habits.

OTOH, there are TB'ers who defineately hear things differnt than I. Good for them. I'm sure they are nice people but not those that share my aesthetics.

The purely tech guys (who are not builders or established players) typically confuse the issue at least for me.

[4-string]

As long as there's no limit to how many members you can have on your ignore list, I have no problem with people posting specs.

[smogg]

Originally Posted by 4-string

As long as there's no limit to how many members you can have on your ignore list, I have no problem with people posting specs.

LOL...Now that's a good one.