Eden WT800 Bridged Mono into GB UB410

[pbasswil]

Hi folks,

I think I've got my amp plan straight, but want to run it by some other gearheads just to double-check:

I've been running my stereo Eden WT800 through two 8 ohm cabs since I got it -- one cab per side.
I'm now going to change to a smaller, but still potent setup.
I want to go to a single cab that can dish out as much booty as I'm ever likely to need.

It's looking like that's going to be a Genz UB410 -- rated at 1000w and available in 4 or 8 ohms. For what I do, I'll never need more than that single cab.

I just want someone to confirm that to wring the most out of this amp/cab setup, I'll be wanting to run the WT800 in bridged-mono. Which, I understand, puts out 800 watts into a minimum 8 ohm load.

So it seems obvious I'll want the 8 ohm UB410. I'm not overlooking anything, am I?

Also: Do the 4 and 8 ohm versions of the same cabinet (driven by amps capable of those loads, and with the exact same wattage) produce exactly the same volume??

Thanks!

pw (Montréal)

[4Mal]

Depends on which version of the WT-800 you have I believe. My model 'A' is 700 into 8 ohms as I recall. It's a dang loud 700. I ran mine into a fEarful 12/6 and couldn't take it up very far before I was excessively loud ...

Real world ? If those rigs aren't the same volume - they will be darn close. When in doubt, go with the higher impedance is my suggestion. 700 or 800 watts into a reasonably efficient 4x10 is stupid loud anyway. If one of those rigs is actually louder than the other it's merely a matter of how much overkill is too much overkill IMO ...

[pbasswil]

Thanks 4Mal.

I'm very close to buying the UB410 @8ohm to run with 800 watts from the bridged WT800. I can't imagine being anything other than over-amped -- and tickled pink.

Anybody else have comments?

[babebambi]

If your WT800 can bridge to 4 ohm, then I would buy the 4 ohm 410.

My reason to get the 410 is not to get more power from the amp
but it will be easier to pair another head with the 410 if you decide to replace the wt800
most amp head can't push enough power to fully utilize that 410 at 8 ohm

[pbasswil]

Originally Posted by babebambi

If your WT800 can bridge to 4 ohm, then I would buy the 4 ohm 410.

My reason to get the 410 is not to get more power from the amp but it will be easier to pair another head with the 410 if you decide to replace the wt800
most amp head can't push enough power to fully utilize that 410 at 8 ohm

Nope, the manual says my WT800 bridges to a minimum 8 ohms.
At any rate, it's in good shape and sounds good, so I don't figure on replacing it any time soon.

pw

[Bluesbob]

I have a WT800B, which allows bridging into 4 ohms, and I no longer use anything more than a single 4X10 cab. I have run this amp into both an 8-ohm Goliath III and a 4-ohm Schroeder 410L. In both cases, if I turn up too much, the cabs are over-powered, to the point of speaker distortion and imminent failure.

I think the 8-ohm GB would be a very good match, with tone on the warm side from the amp and mid-punch from the cab. With 800 watts, it will be more than loud enough for anything other than an outdoor gig with no PA support. Maybe even then, depending on your music, style, drummer, etc.

Another thing is that bass cabs may have a certain power rating, but when you start to play really low bass through them, the speakers will start to distort, even though the amp is putting out less than the rated wattage. The Schroeder is rated at 1200 watts, and it is really loud, but if I were to ever turn the WT800 up all the way and play down low on the E string, I have no doubt that the speakers would be launched out of their frames. And you have to be doubly careful with an Eden WT amp, which is speced with 3dB of headroom, meaning that, theoretically, your WT800A can put out an instantaneous peak of 1600 watts into 8 ohms when bridged.

[pbasswil]

Bluesbob, I sure appreciate your comments, that's valuable real-life experience for me to consider.

I have experience with boosted lows from the WT800A torturing my two medium-sized 8 ohm cabs!
Anyway, I won't often be needing more than 1/3 of the volume my new setup will be able to deliver.

Cheers,

pw

Originally Posted by Bluesbob

I have a WT800B, which allows bridging into 4 ohms, and I no longer use anything more than a single 4X10 cab. I have run this amp into both an 8-ohm Goliath III and a 4-ohm Schroeder 410L. In both cases, if I turn up too much, the cabs are over-powered, to the point of speaker distortion and imminent failure.

I think the 8-ohm GB would be a very good match, with tone on the warm side from the amp and mid-punch from the cab. With 800 watts, it will be more than loud enough for anything other than an outdoor gig with no PA support. Maybe even then, depending on your music, style, drummer, etc.

Another thing is that bass cabs may have a certain power rating, but when you start to play really low bass through them, the speakers will start to distort, even though the amp is putting out less than the rated wattage. The Schroeder is rated at 1200 watts, and it is really loud, but if I were to ever turn the WT800 up all the way and play down low on the E string, I have no doubt that the speakers would be launched out of their frames. And you have to be doubly careful with an Eden WT amp, which is speced with 3dB of headroom, meaning that, theoretically, your WT800A can put out an instantaneous peak of 1600 watts into 8 ohms when bridged.

[chicago_mike]

Either impedance will work in your situation. Im going with a uber 410 and 210 in 8ohm each. FOr me that will be a wonderful setup.

[12bass]

Running a pair of 8 ohm cabinets is less than ideal with the older WT-800. It is best suited for two 4 ohm cabinets or one 8 ohm using mono bridge.

[Vinny D]

Originally Posted by 4Mal

Depends on which version of the WT-800 you have I believe. My model 'A' is 700 into 8 ohms as I recall. It's a dang loud 700. I ran mine into a fEarful 12/6 and couldn't take it up very far before I was excessively loud ...
...

The WT800 was always 800w @ 8ohms in bridge mode.
The older *A* models can only do 8ohms.
The real *B* versions can be bridged to 4ohms, these were produced starting in April of 05.
The current *C* model which can easily be detected by the lighted Eden logo and mute feature that doesn't work also will do bridged @ 4ohms.

[pbasswil]

Hi guys,

Thanks again for all comments.

I went and checked out the GB Über 410 and some of its competitors today. As usual, (why does this perpetually take me by surprise??) my experience of their sound was completely different from what I was expecting after reading about them on TalkBass.

I expected the UB410 (rated at 1000watts) to be beyond loud and deep. I found I was able to easily get to it's excursion limits with the WT800 and just a little bass boost (but no "Enhance").
I was actually quite taken by a Mesa 410 Vintage Powerhouse. It seemed thicker and meatier to my ear -- and probably more scooped in the high mids, but crystal clear above that.
Also tried the biggest GK 410, the front-vented Markbass 410, as well as the GB Uber 212.

I got too overwhelmed to make a choice today, but so far the Mesa was the most viscerally enjoyable to me. I'll try them again another day, on a fresh aural palette!

Interesting, though -- one consideration went right out the window almost immediately: the nominal power rating of these cabs. It seems to mean diddley squat! It says more about how optimistic the manufacturer is about rating them. All these cabs got to around the same sound pressure levels before the drivers started farting out, whether they're rated for 600 or 800 or 1000 watts.

-- pw

[agedhorse]

Note that the WT800 has no meaningful high pass filter so much of your power was being wasted well below the mechanical unloading point for all of the cabinets you were using. This is another aspect of power handling of ANY speaker... it's not just a single number but a range that depends on how much low frequency extension you are trying to achieve. Mechanical power handling goes down as frequency goes down once you approach the -3dB LF point of the speaker cabinet. St the -10dB point, mechanical power handling can be 1/2 of rated and/or thermal power handling.

[12bass]

Not sure what is "meaningful", however, my testing indicates that the Eden WTs do have a high pass filter, somewhere around 30 - 40 Hz. Could post some response plots if that is helpful.

[pbasswil]

Originally Posted by agedhorse

Note that the WT800 has no meaningful high pass filter so much of your power was being wasted well below the mechanical unloading point for all of the cabinets you were using. This is another aspect of power handling of ANY speaker... it's not just a single number but a range that depends on how much low frequency extension you are trying to achieve. Mechanical power handling goes down as frequency goes down once you approach the -3dB LF point of the speaker cabinet. St the -10dB point, mechanical power handling can be 1/2 of rated and/or thermal power handling.

Didn't quite understand all of that, but I'm intrigued. Do many other heads have a built-in high pass? I'm going to guess that your GB heads do??

If a h.p. filter was to be inserted between the WT800 and the GB 410, what frequency would you recommend it be set at??

t.i.a.,

pw

[12bass]

The gist is that ported bass cabinets will not take much power at low frequencies, particularly below the port frequency where the drivers are unloaded. Amps which have a high pass filter will roll off those lower frequencies (which take a lot of power and cause excessive excursion) and will be safer and provide more usable power with a vented enclosure. Manufacturers often give only a thermal power rating which does not accurately indicate how much power can be handled at low frequencies. Thus, this specification is of limited usefulness for bassists.

[Bluesbob]

Originally Posted by agedhorse

Note that the WT800 has no meaningful high pass filter

The Eden WT series has some of the most powerful EQ controls of any amp, "meaningful" or not. But what agedhorse is trying to get at is more or less what I said in my first post. I usually run mine at about 11:30 (down a coupla' clicks on the bass knob) with the Schroeder. That helps avoid what the engineers like to call "over-excursion". And that's what we bass players call "farting".

[pbasswil]

Originally Posted by Bluesbob

The Eden WT ... I usually run mine at about 11:30 (down a coupla' clicks on the bass knob) with the Schroeder. That helps avoid what the engineers like to call "over-excursion". And that's what we bass players call "farting".

Gotcha. Unfortunately, I _love_ the feel of bass boost. /
If I got myself some kind of high-pass filter in my signal chain, I'm guessing I'd have more leeway to crank the bass before reaching speaker excursion limits?

- pw

[12bass]

As I recall, one click (from 12:00 to 1:00) on the WT800 gives about 6dB of bass boost, with a shelving EQ which is said to be set at 30 Hz. That's 4x the power! Might be worth investigating a slight cut in the midrange instead. Also, although that big bass boost might sound great right in front of the cabinet, it may be too boomy off of the stage.

[agedhorse]

As an informational note, as bass amps get more and more powerful, many manufacturers are (finally) adding steep active high pass filters to prevent speaker damage. The key to this being successful is the the filters need to have meaningful (ie. steeper than the old school 6dB/octave) slopes and alignments. This is especially important is much bass boost is being used with shelving LF eq as the boost gain is applied down too low without factoring in a real high pass filter. We have been doing this for over 10 years, and in the PA world it's been the defacto standard for over 20 years to protect large subs. I expect it to become standard in the bass world too, but there is still a lot of legacy gear out there that does not have this added protection so beware when using it into smaller cabinets or driving cabinets with a lot of low frequency content.

[4Mal]

The Eden EQ is a love it or hate it affair IMO. It is extremely powerful - which takes a little getting used to. Me ? I love it... but I also use it minimally. Just a scootch here and there. A little goes a long way on other words. One thing to consider is some form of parametric EQ. You would leave the EQ flat, except for the very lowest band (if multi-band). Set that one for something like 40 hz, a fairly narrow Q - if it's fully parametric - a shelving EQ would be ideal for this ... and cut. Cut like a bad actor ... that will give your speakers some protection. The WT-800 is capable of creating havoc down low ...

One of the EQ's I would look for would be the ART Tube EQ. that one is a 4 band with the hi & lo being shelving controls - the control affects everything above or below the respective shelves. For the low, there is a 40/120 hz button. You would want the 40 setting. The inner two bands are semi parametric like those on the Eden - pretty much you leave everything else on that Eq alone and use the Eden instead.
Sounds like a waste of features but - try finding a reasonably priced hi pass filter. the ART begin's too look pretty danged good.

Fidelity wise the ART is really strong. I have a pair of ART Tube Channel mic preamps in my recording rack. The Tube EQ is the same EQ section but in a half rack format. I consider the Tube Channel to be the poor man's Demeter. I had both versions of the Demeter 201 when I landed my first ART. The Demeter got a slight edge when it came to smooth grind at very extreme gain settings. Fidelity and noise floor wise - it was neck & neck among the 3 units. Says a lot for a channel strip you can find for low dough ...