fEARLESS F210

[Sundogue]

Am I in the Twilight Zone?

I feel like I'm reading posts about pre-released fEARful designs from years ago.

Nevertheless, I have to go...popcorn is done. Carry on.

[dukeorock]

Originally Posted by Tuned

And sure, I'd give any fEARless cab a fair day in court, but e what I want in a cab, so it'd just end up propping up my 4x10. If I want pounding subs I can have a proper subwoofer dropped off for me anytime. Half the time I have to turn up because the PA subs are too hot on stage. Not interested in adding to that, especially since the phasing would be brutal.

If an SWR 410=bliss then I wholeheartedly agree that these cabs will NOT be for you.

So if you aren't trolling, why are you here, friend?

[barryaudio]

Originally Posted by Tuned

Those are all taken into account in the cab designs on Eminence's site:
http://www.eminence.com/pdf/Kappalite_3015LF_cab.pdf

Since it's an LF driver the ratings are appropriate for bass guitar applications. A driver's power rating is open to interpretation, but the rating of a driver in a specific cab for a specific purpose is not subject to interpretation. There are several cabs illustrated, the only one rated higher than 450W is 13.5 cu ft, way bigger than the others and way bigger than the F115.

The fEARful page indicates a 3015LF in a small vented cab can handle 794W. That's simply not true, and note that it is only suggested and not actually claimed. The avoidance of listing anything concrete seems quite deliberate. Seems to me like they want you to think it can handle more than it can. Not saying that's what they're doing, just how I see it.

And sure, I'd give any fEARless cab a fair day in court, but based on what I'm reading, they're not trying to achieve what I want in a cab, so it'd just end up propping up my 4x10. If I want pounding subs I can have a proper subwoofer dropped off for me anytime. Half the time I have to turn up because the PA subs are too hot on stage. Not interested in adding to that, especially since the phasing would be brutal.

You are confusing thermal and program power ratings. The 450W is a continuous thermal limit (i.e. sine wave). Those charts are generated from frequency sweeps which need to be limited to the thermal ratings. It not a spec for program, which is closer representative of the actual ratings. If the question is to find the "real life" power rating for one of these cabs, 800W is very good estimate. Most folks want to know "Is my 500W @ 8Ohm amp going to overpower a F115". No because that 500W amp is not delivering 500W of continuous sine wave power to the speakers.

You misread the spec sheet. The 13.5 cu ft cab is a 2x15.

There is no avoidance of concrete terms. Greenboy does not sell cabs and therefore he does not make claims. Builders sell cabs and we can make claims and will stand behind them. I'll put my money on a 800W bass amp on a 15/6 any day.

I really do not want to get contentious here, but I think it's important to clear the air for anyone who is new to reading all this.

[JGR]

Another misconception is that you will end up with huge boomy sub bass/lows/whatever because of the low frequency potential of these cabs. The cabs will only reproduce what you put in them, so if the rest of your rig is in order, you won't have any problems. If you do run into this issue, you should probably examine your signal chain and adjust accordingly. I primarily play through sealed cabs, but I had no issues playing my same basses and amps through a 15/6. Felt right at home.

[Mike Arnopol]

I agree with Don and Mark. I just got a Tecamp Puma 900 to test speakers. I can tell you this---the 3015LF's can take peaks
of 800 watts.

For me a successful rig is all about dynamic reserves. That's where the peak ratings come into play for me. I have two little digital amps. One puts out 350 watts into 8. The other 600. The smaller one can reach the maximum volume I need. But the bigger one at the same volume just has a better sound---more dynamic.

Watts are pretty cheap these days.So if a 210 can go as loud, deeper (and WAY more focused ) and sound better than a 410----and weigh 1/3 as much ----seems like a no brainer for me.

Of course it will never be an SWR 410 though.

[rpsands]

With bass guitar, peaks are the name of the game. If your average bass signal is 200 watts, without compression there're almost certainly 600 watt peaks on attack if you've got a big right hand (or you're slapping). 400 for sure, unless you're incredibly gentle.

If your average signal is 450 watts...you guessed it, there're probably 900 watt peaks if your amp can put that much juice out (which, admittedly, not that many of the class D/SMPS amps can do).

You've got two potential limitations there. If your amp chokes on the wattage requested, you'll get artifacts. If your speaker chokes, you will get artifacts (and very possibly a lungful of magic smoke). If you use pedals or other signal tweakers, of course, there's the same limitations there. Lots of pedals clamp down on your dynamic range as well.

[shoot-r]

Originally Posted by Mike Arnopol

A cool thing about the 3010lf---it uses the same magnet structure as the 12 and 15. So it can accelerate a lot quicker (given a decent amount of watts in).

Mike,

The way I'm read this, the 10" driver will respond quicker because of less cone mass to start and stop than a 12" or 15" driver has to move.

From my understanding, many here at T.B. have told me a 10", 12", or 15" driver will respond at the same speed, but my ears have always told me differently.
I've tried all driver sizes and my ears always come back to the feel of speed that only 10's seem to have.

[::::BASSIST::::]

Originally Posted by Tuned

Eminence's own cab design PDF's say the 3015LF can't be driven past 450W in a cabinet the size of the F115 due to excursion limits. You fEARless guys aren't exaggerating the power ratings of your cabs are you?

I have put close to 1500w into my fEARful 15/6, which uses the 3015LF. Don't I want to go much beyond that but yeah 450w is no problem at all.

[Mike Arnopol]

Originally Posted by shoot-r

Mike,

The way I'm read this, the 10" driver will respond quicker because of less cone mass to start and stop than a 12" or 15" driver has to move.

From my understanding, many here at T.B. have told me a 10", 12", or 15" driver will respond at the same speed, but my ears have always told me differently.
I've tried all driver sizes and my ears always come back to the feel of speed that only 10's seem to have.

It's a matter of motor size and mass (and suspension). My experience is that given the same motor the speaker with lower mass will respond more quickly.

[dukeorock]

Originally Posted by shoot-r

Mike,

The way I'm read this, the 10" driver will respond quicker because of less cone mass to start and stop than a 12" or 15" driver has to move.

From my understanding, many here at T.B. have told me a 10", 12", or 15" driver will respond at the same speed, but my ears have always told me differently.
I've tried all driver sizes and my ears always come back to the feel of speed that only 10's seem to have.

If I may point out...keep in mind that Mike is talking about the motor in a specific driver of a specific brand and model. The notions that 10's are 'faster' than 12's or 15's in a general sense is a bit misleading. In the case of the 3010LF this works

[jnewmark]

Unless 4 ohm capabilty is a must, I would probably go with the 15, just to save a couple hundred bucks. I got a quote from an AB for $1400 for the 210. It may sound like liquid Jesus dipped in bacon fat, but that price for a 210 is way out of my price range.

[rpsands]

And the 2x10 isn't even as loud as the 1x15, which is ~400 bucks cheaper.

It feels like an expensive way to get a 4 ohm F112 that isn't quite as compact to me. Going to be a very specific use-case.

[Mike Arnopol]

Got to be honest---it is a lot of dough. Problem is that the 10" drivers cost the same as the 15. Very little difference between materials and labor. But I will tell you what---
A 3012lf is about 496 cc's in terms of Vd---which represents how much air a speaker can move. A good starting point to judge.

A 3015lf is about 850

The 210 is about 600.

So it is about in between the 12 and 15. A typical 410 is less than 600.

So we're not talking huge differences in volume capabilities.

You have to keep in mind that you can't compare this to any 210 on the planet. It's more like a 410. So when you look at it in this light---it's pricey but not out of line. Half the size of a 410 without the inherent cancellations experienced with a 410.

And I'm glad that Mark chimed in. It's comparing apples to apples. The magnet/coil assembly is the same with all three. So the one with the lightest mass will have better acceleration--and at least important---deceleration.

As Mark said---this isn't about "a 10 is faster than a 15"

It's about the balance between the motor size and the stiffness of suspension and the mass to be moved. So a 15 with a large motor can move more quickly with better control than a 10 with a small motor.

I was just looking at a review of a very nice looking 2 x 8 cab. All top Italian drivers. Haven't heard it but I'm sure it sounds awesome. The cab cost over a grand. But the drivers cost (wholesale) about $400. Best drivers you can get. The Vd on this cab is about 360cc's. So---it's pricey but I'm sure it sounds great. But it only competes with a 210.

My point is---if one is going to use the best materials and engineering---it costs money.

So---when you look at the 210 you can't think of it as a 210 when compared to ANYTHING else on the market.

[jnewmark]

How does BFM's designs compare ? I had a Jack 210 some years ago built for me at about half the price.

http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/Jack.html

[JxBass]

What Mike described above is exactly why I'm going with an F210. For me it's not about the cost of the F210 versus an F112 or F115, it's about the cost and form factor of the F210 versus a quality 410.

Owning an F110 and knowing how it stacks up against a top notch 210 is all I need to know to go forward with an F210.

Thanks Mike!

[dukeorock]

Originally Posted by JxBass

What Mike described above is exactly why I'm going with an F210. For me it's not about the cost of the F210 versus an F112 or F115, it's about the cost and form factor of the F210 versus a quality 410.

Owning an F110 and knowing how it stacks up against a top notch 210 is all I need to know to go forward with an F210.

Thanks Mike!

Mike described this perfectly. It's called an F210, but just calling it a 210 undervalues it's actual performance potential.

Good call JxBass!

[JxBass]

Order placed !

[mam1862]

Originally Posted by JxBass

Order placed !

I am with you. Just placed an order. Was going back and forth between the 210 and the 212. Decided on the TC212.

[Foz]

Was going back and forth between the 210 and the 212. Decided on the TC212.

You should have bought a 66.


Just sayin'

[CL400Peavey]

Originally Posted by Foz

You should have bought a 66.


Just sayin'

+1

With '66's we shall rule the world.