Fender Tone Stacks - I am being buried in our bandmix

Devo-lution · #1 09-05-2011, 02:59 PM

Not sure whether this is in amps or in band management... But since it's so specificly related to amps and tone stacks.

I use a 100 watt fender-ish amp myself that has a fender tone stack. Heard around here and elsewhere that you can have a flat-ish response on a fender tone stack by putting it as follows: bass: 2, mids: 10 and treble: 2.

My amp sounds flat to my ears if I put it 0-10-1.

Our three guitar players also have amps which might have "fender tone stacks". Yet, all three of them have their bass knobs over 5, so this might just be the reason why I'm buried out so often during rehearsals.

The amps:

singer: some new digital fender thingy... Don't know much about it.

Lead guitar player: Fender bassman reissue 4x10 combo

Rythm guitar player: Vox AC30

So, can this be the cause of being buried out or is it because I only use a 100 watt amp with a 115 most of the time? :')

Mr. Foxen · #2 09-05-2011, 03:09 PM

Guitar speakers have a mid bump that compensates to an extent for the Fender tone stack. The digital Fender might not have the same thing going on anyway. Vox AC30 has a different toe stack again.

What is the amp and the 15 you have?

Jazz Ad · #3 09-05-2011, 03:10 PM

An AC30 is enough to burry your combo alive. What you need is more power.

Devo-lution · #4 09-05-2011, 03:17 PM

I have a FAD four and a FAD 1x15. FAD is a belgian brand of handbuilt tube amps and is virtually unknown outside of Belgium...

My regular servicer examined the amp recently and told me that my amp is largely based on a fender bassman circuit. The 1x15 is quite powerful according to my perception (it's almost as loud as my trace 2x15 and less than half the weight).

SBsoundguy · #5 09-05-2011, 03:19 PM

I guess use the Trace.

will33 · #6 09-05-2011, 03:21 PM

You're approaching your tone stack right although you can add a little bass to fill in the bottom. If the guitarist don't get the tone stack/have too much bass dialed in or are just too loud and won't turn down more speakers and/or power are needed. On guitar, I like my fenders with the bass knob up a little bit too but too much will get in your way.

You can work with the guitars to try and dial in your individual tones to slot the mix better but some guitarists don't listen to any advise on "their tone".......in that case you're down to just needing more volume.

Devo-lution · #7 09-05-2011, 03:21 PM

I do so often, but it's a hassle to carry around and the other guys don't really like helping me out with unloading etc... That's why I often take the 115 for quick rehearsals, with the result of being buried alive as "jazz ad" puts it.

**B-string** · #8 09-05-2011, 03:23 PM

Add a second 15" will do more to level the playing field, add an eq in your signal chain to boost your mids more. Other than that, you need more power and more speakers.

Mr. Foxen · #9 09-05-2011, 03:59 PM

Most minimal way to help is get your 15 pointing at you head, tilting or putting it on top of stuff. Does sound like you just need more all round though.

billfitzmaurice · #10 09-05-2011, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Devo-lution

So, can this be the cause of being buried out or is it because I only use a 100 watt amp with a 115 most of the time? :')

That. Either of those guitar amps will bury you, badly. At the least you need two fifteens.

Sartori · #11 09-05-2011, 07:29 PM

You need more speakers.

HeadyVan Halen · #12 09-05-2011, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sartori

You need more speakers.

Always a good idea.
That said, I feel the 'Tone Stack' sounds terrible. Never has enough bottom for me. Don't get locked into "what has worked" or "what other people say"..

Listen to your ears...they hear things.

jgroh · #13 09-05-2011, 07:55 PM

You need more watts.

beans-on-toast · #14 09-05-2011, 08:42 PM

You have to consider where you sit in the mix so that the instruments aren't occupying the same frequencies. This can cause a weaker instrument to get lost.

The AC30 is strong at the high end. The 410 Bassman tends to sit lower. You don't need to play with the tone set flat. Boosting the lows might help position your bass so it isn't walking over the other players and getting lost.

I find that active basses sound great on their own but can be harder to find a place in the mix. It takes some listening and tone adjusting to get things clear.

How aggressive you play when you hit the strings and if you use a pick makes a difference when power output is limited.

Sometimes you simply need more speakers or more power to properly fix these sort of problems. The Bassman and AC30 are loud tube amps. If your amp is transistor based, you might need more power.

**colcifer** · #15 09-05-2011, 08:51 PM

The good news is that you get to get new gear.

James Judson · #16 09-05-2011, 08:54 PM

Your problem is guitars. X3???? Thats 2 to many. They need to leave room. I'm guessing they play mostly power chords. You could get more watts but that is only going to encurage them to turn up. When I'm in your situations I reccoment "NO GUITARS" during vocals. Half the time the guitards can't not play and right there is your problem. The other half of the time they will not play during the vocals and afterwards they will say. "That sounds awesome" "great dynamics" and they can't praise it enough. But the very next time: there are the guitards making a bunch of racket. Theres your problem all over again.

Its your battle but what I would do is fire a couple guitards.

Marty Forrer · #17 09-05-2011, 09:09 PM

You're gonna need a good set of earplugs too.

Devo-lution · #18 09-06-2011, 01:19 AM

I can ensure you... In this band all three of these guitars are playing almost all of the time :')... It's a shoegaze meets post rock band.

Mr AC30 is the weakest player of the band and sometimes his lines don't really contribute at all but well, he always get whiny and mopy if you ask him to not play for a part of a song. He does the twangy powerchords thing.

The singer either plays guitar (he is more mr fancy chords) or keys but that's even worse, since he has a heavy hands. Having him to just sing a song and not play has also proven unsuccesful in the past.

The only guy who would willingly not play a part of a song if it were for the benefit of a song, is mr bassman. Ironically, he is by far the best guitar player of the band.

Sartori · #19 09-06-2011, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James Judson

Your problem is guitars. X3???? Thats 2 to many. They need to leave room. I'm guessing they play mostly power chords. You could get more watts but that is only going to encurage them to turn up. When I'm in your situations I reccoment "NO GUITARS" during vocals. Half the time the guitards can't not play and right there is your problem. The other half of the time they will not play during the vocals and afterwards they will say. "That sounds awesome" "great dynamics" and they can't praise it enough. But the very next time: there are the guitards making a bunch of racket. Theres your problem all over again.

Its your battle but what I would do is fire a couple guitards.

That only works for some styles.

Son of Bovril · #20 09-06-2011, 01:53 AM

Let them have a practice without you and if afterwards they say "that sucked there was no power or low end without you" then consider getting bigger gear. If they don't even miss you then they are so far up their own "earplugs" that nothing you can do besides an 810 and 3000watts that you have to carry by yourself is gonna fix...

honestly, in a band with 3 guitars playing distortion, the bass is just there to fill in the low frequencies the guitards can't reach and make them sound better

listen to periphery, hear much bass there?