first rig purchase - check my thinking

[Rebecca]

I'm getting ready to get my first giggable rig, and I'd like anyone willing to let me know if my thinking makes since. So far, I've been playing with a small practice combo amp at home and with my guitarist's bass rig at rehearsals and at our only gig so far.

I like the tone and transportability of the GB shuttles I've tested, have been waffling between the 3.0 + 10" cab vs the 6.0 + 12". I think I've settled on the latter. Here's why.

Our band is yet another 4-piece hobby band playing mostly classic rock and blues. The rig I've been using is consists of a 300 watt head and a 15" speaker. In rehearsal, it's fine, though I'm not nuts about the tone. At the gig we did, it was, IMO, hard to get the volume up enough without really sounding horrible. Had to keep the amp turned somewhat low, and have the bass volume knob all the way up. It felt like I had no room to move, so to speak.

This is all new to me (only been playing just under a year), so I'm not really sure what speaker size contributes to the whole picture, but I think this means I'd be happier with a 600watt head, and I'm just guessing that the 12" cab would be adequate for a similar, small bar type gig.

I'd like to save the couple hundred bucks (and few pounds) that getting the GB 3.0 combo would save me, but not at the expense of wishing I had more power. On the other hand, the 300 watt amp was loud enough, and maybe there was some other reason I couldn't crank it up more without distorting the tone, like a mismatched cab or something.

Any thoughts, advice etc? I want something I'll be happy with, without going overboard, but mostly, I want to understand better what I'm doing. (I have read around, but frankly, on a big purchase, I like getting direct opinions, too. Ignore if this is too redundant.)

[JimmyM]

with bass, you never regret going bigger than you intended with the cab. unless of course you go insanely big and can't move it

[RickenBoogie]

And, 600 watts is great, but a single 12" speaker will limit your volume. In fact, 300 watts through a larger cab, like a 4x10, would be louder than 600 watts through a single 12. Bass volume requires more speakers. If you go with the Shuttle 6.0/12, it would be a good idea to also get a 12" ext cab to go with it.

[Jimmy P.]

"Had to keep the amp turned somewhat low, and have the bass volume knob all the way up."

Perhaps the bass frequencies are boosted too much; try cutting them back a little...

[dmrogers]

Originally Posted by RickenBoogie

And, 600 watts is great, but a single 12" speaker will limit your volume. In fact, 300 watts through a larger cab, like a 4x10, would be louder than 600 watts through a single 12. Bass volume requires more speakers. If you go with the Shuttle 6.0/12, it would be a good idea to also get a 12" ext cab to go with it.

Originally Posted by JimmyM

with bass, you never regret going bigger than you intended with the cab. unless of course you go insanely big and can't move it

What they said. Consider at least 2x12 or 4x10 and a head that will supply enough juice. Nothing is more frustrating than not have enough to comfortably cover your needs.

[S.B.]

I play 300 watt through and Avatar 4-10 in medium venues and have plenty of power. Agree, need more than 1-12. Also as Jimmy P said could be muddy sound if 1-15 with bass up all the way.

[rodl2005]

You'll get far more volume outta yr current amp by adding more speakers, rather than just grabbing more wattage. Check what yr amp power is at the current impedance yr using with the 1x15 cab, see if U can add say a 4x10 cab or 2x12 etc... to what U already have- You WILL get far more volume, but whether U dig the TONE.... is another matter. U MAY find the tone is better also.... may not. IMO U need to try a few different set ups. B4 spending any hard earned $$

[muddycreek]

Borrow some other bass cabinet and try it out with your current rig (given that the ohms work out, yadda yadda... don't add another cabinet if your head won't go down below 4 ohms and your current cabinet is already 4 by itself...). Anything will do for testing, another 15, something with a handful of 10's, heck, plug a 15" PA speaker in there if there's one lying around. Play that for a practice and see if it works out.

You may have enough HEAD, but be shy on cabinet or cabinet sensitivity (loudness given x number of watts). Cheaper to figure it out now. What kind of head/cab are you playing through?

Far be it from me to stop someone from getting a really nice, light head though!

[Scottgun]

As you see from my sig, 300W into 2x12. A gig that is too big for this rig is a gig I need to dance the DI jig. Dig?

[rodl2005]

Doug??

[Basslice]

Originally Posted by Rebecca

In rehearsal, it's fine, though I'm not nuts about the tone. At the gig we did, it was, IMO, hard to get the volume up enough without really sounding horrible. Had to keep the amp turned somewhat low, and have the bass volume knob all the way up. It felt like I had no room to move, so to speak.

How do you know what you sound like? Are you just reporting what the rig you have used sounds like while you were standing in front of it, or did you have someone else play your rig (at volume) in front of the band whilst you listened?

Why do I ask? You probably project a much different volume and tone than you hear standing in front of your rig on stage. You may not need what you think you do.

p.s. 300W is a shi_load of power. Unless you are playing a large rock club, I have doubts that power is your problem.

[Scottgun]

Are you cutting the mids with your EQ or using a scoop/contour button or knob?

[lowphatbass]

I don't like selling/trading-in equipment, I like to buy the best thing I can and keep it as possible. For this reason I would go bigger as far as the head is concerned and add a second cab later.

[Mo'Phat]

Is your 300w amp giving the full 300 watts at 8 ohms? Chances are your 1x15 is an 8 ohm load...so if your 300w amp is 300 watts at 4 ohms, you're only sending 150 to an 8 ohm speaker.

Also, what whatshisname up there said...if your Bass control was cranked, and sounded bad when you turned it up, it's because you were probably overdriving the speaker. Turn the bass knob down (I mean down-down...not just cut back a smidge) and turn up your master volume. You'll have more power to project the bass guitar into the house and it won't all be eaten up by trying to reproduce the subsonic lows loudly.

...or get yourself a bigger amp and at least a 4x10 for gigging.

[Bass Junkie]

I know this weighs a little more, but the Acoustic B200 is the best amp for the money for someone starting out. It's reasonably priced and it sounds good. Don't let the 200 watt rating fool you, it'll get louder than the 300 watt Shuttle. Read the reviews in the link below. This weekend they are 15% off with coupon code HEROES.

http://bass-guitars.musiciansfriend....mbo?sku=482902

[Muckaluck]

The Genz Benz stuff is great equipment. Hard to go wrong there.

In terms of watts, 300 Genz Benz watts can be much different than 300 Hartke watts or 300 Ampeg watts. Hard to know if you'll be satisfied with the power output until you actually try the gear.

I'll pass along one piece of advice that I heard on talkbass that has stuck with me for buying bass gear and making all sorts of other purchases in my life: A eagle can fly low but a chicken can only fly so high.

If you buy bigger and better stuff it can always be turned down. Not so much on the other hand.

[Rebecca]

Thanks for all the input, this is giving me lots to think about. I can see I've got to go with more cabinet than I thought, just don't know if I want to get something kind of big to begin with, or maybe do add-ons, so that I've got something small and easy for when that's enough (eg. rehearsals). Whatever I do, I'll be getting a new amp, not just adding on to the current rig, because I want something of my own, and I'm currently using my guitarist's stuff.

Responding to some of the specific comments:

How do you know what you sound like? Are you just reporting what the rig you have used sounds like while you were standing in front of it, or did you have someone else play your rig (at volume) in front of the band whilst you listened?

Combination of what I heard on stage or rehearsal, what the sound man said at the gig and what I hear in the recordings I do of our rehearsals. But I know for sure that I don't know enough yet to get the most out of any equipment - I fiddle with settings and still feel like there's tons more I could discover to improve sound.

Are you cutting the mids with your EQ or using a scoop/contour button or knob?

I usually use a knob that scoops the mids because I like the tone I get (for most things I play, but not all). But I don't see how that plays into the volume question.

What kind of head/cab are you playing through?

The head is a GK Backline 600, but I've never paid attention to what the cab is.

I'm finding the range of possibilities kind of daunting, esp. since at this point, gigs will be few and far between. As the first step up from a practice amp, I'd like something I can grow with a bit, but won't be overkill. That's part of why the shuttle 6.0 sounded good - I could add cab as needed, but maybe just start with more than I had originally thought. But maybe I should back off on amp power and spend the difference on more cab to begin with.

[revroy]

Rebecca,

I'm at a similar place to you... I'm a guitar player who's been playing in bands for years and now have to move to bass in our church band so I'm looking to upgrade a little practice amp to something more serious.

The issue of speakers is a serious one for you but there are a variety of ways to approach it. As has been suggested you can get 1 big cab... but you also can get two smaller cabs. Plus the amp produces differing amounts of power depending on how many ohms the speaker cab is. For example, if you go with the GB 3, you only get something like 150 watts through the speaker that comes with it (8 ohms)... add a 2nd 8 ohm cabinet and you have a total load of 4 ohms and get 300 watts plus more speakers moving more air. Ditto for the 6.0, it is only 300 watts through the stock speaker, add a second cab to drop the number of ohms and double the power. So, one more thing to think about is the 3.0 or 6.0 shuttle AND an additional speaker cab. Use one cab when that is enough and save your back and when you're playing in a larger venue and need to move more air, bring the additional cab.

FWIW, I too find the GB's really attractive. I'm too old to carry huge cabs around or even heavy heads. I'm also thinking about the Carvin 500 watt head and a 2 10 or 112 speaker cab (maybe from Avatar)... it would be heavier but less expensive (also a consideration for me).

[SurferJoe46]

There's some sort of theme running between the lines here with your hesitancy to concede that you need more cone area and a larger power supply for them.

If you don't want to lay out a lot of $$ or you are not sure of your total dedication to bass-playing, then I can understand it - but if you buy something that just barely makes it for practice and gets eaten up at a gig, you're gonna be one frustrated bassist any way you try it without holding your nose to the wheel and accept that you need to move air - lots of air - to be heard on the bass.

You might not even consider what I'm gonna suggest as some question the product name - but that's their problem. I recently got the Acoustic B-600 head and just run it with the cabs I already got from the same manufacturer.

The head unit is light, although the cabs aren't so - but for the $ and the sound I find that using either a pair of 115s or a pair of 410s or any combo of them can get some scorching sound and much more serious rumble that you can imagine.

With that head you can run down to 2 Ohms and that means you can run three cabs! All at the same time! No-one will step on you again and you can do it for some serious $ savings too.

I had been running the B-450 combo cab - and still have it for the times I can use it - but the amp inside it was the B-600 and I knew I wasn't gonna go any smaller in Watts for any reason. You cannot have too much head room!

So - running that B-600 head and whatever combo I want really opens doors and makes me much more viable for any venue.

I'd say go to GC and actually play the B-600 and try whatever cabs you like and make up your own mind. You really should try it in a 410 and a 115 cab too - you WILL be amazed and you can laugh all the way to the bank.

For a mind blower, try the B-810 4 Ohm cab that Acoustic makes with that B-600 head and even then you can still add a B-115 if you like. I do it all the time.

I personally won't/don't PA my bass for anyone - if it cannot stand alone, then it's too small.

I'm old school and like to be in total control of my sound and refuse to DI to a mixer that is not mine to control although the Acoustic amps can very well do that too if I were so inclined.

"You can always turn DOWN, but if you cannot turn UP - your dead" is my motto.

Don't get me wrong - GB/AMPEG/Carvin and their ilk are great cabs. They are very iconic and accepted all over the place as 'the unit' to play. I cannot argue with that. If you're looking for a smaller cash and stage footprint and yet get a lot of horsepower, then go test them for yoursel.

You should always test drive anything you buy anyway - that's why I refuse to buy online or from a catalog. Kinda like buying false teeth - you gotta try them on!

[Scottgun]

I usually use a knob that scoops the mids because I like the tone I get (for most things I play, but not all). But I don't see how that plays into the volume question.

I believe this might be part of the problem. When we scoop the mids or do "smiley" EQ, we are removing the frequencies that are important to the mix. So we overcompensate by turning up the volume (and many people manage to blow speakers this way). I went for years using scoops, contours, and smiley EQ's and always complaining that no matter how big my rig got, I couldn't hear it well enough. Then I came here and someone said to try putting those mids back in. Yes, the sound is kinda honky on its own, but when it blends with the rest of the band, it sounds good and you can actually hear it. Since then, I've never had a problem being heard and people in the audience whose opinion I could rely on said it sounds great.

That said, it might not be the problem I described, but it certainly warrants looking into either by having someone record the band, or get someone who knows what they are talking about listening to you in the audience and giving you feedback.