fitting the mix issues

JoshuaTSP · #1 09-30-2011, 08:57 PM

I play in a sludge rock/metal trio......and lately, I've been having issues with balancing volume and tone with the guitar.

running a SVT-IIP, Yamaha PB-1 into a Crown power amp....into a 6x10 and 2x15.

My signal gets split with a Y cable after my pedalboard into the dual preamps, and the power amp is set up to feed each preamp into separate cabs.

I use fuzz or distortion most of the time. I've been favoring a Wounded Paw Attack Goat lately or I like RATs.

So the problem is that I'm stomping all over the guitar tone.....either in volume, or tone.

I would say we're fighting for the lower mid range.

The guitar player uses a full stack with dual tube heads.
I would say his tone is Marshall-y.....not ultra-ballsy, but okay. Kind of classic.

Someone commented that my tone is so huge, that only the upper mid range of the guitar is sitting on top, none of the guts that the guitar should have.

So I tried scooping my tone out a little, since I was boosting my mids. It retained most of the power I prefer, and seemed to let the guitar cut a little more.

That said, I got another comment about my tone being huge.

Seriously, I set the preamp volumes to what equate to 1 out ten......HOW CAN THAT BE TOO LOUD?

It seems like it's not too loud, and the guitar player doesn't complain about me being loud?

Anyway, I guess I'm just looking for any experiences, thoughts or ideas that might help?

craig.p · #2 10-01-2011, 05:37 AM

First of all, I congratulate you on knowing about frequency slotting. The vast majority of players don't, and simply rely on the widespread but absurd notion of "cutting through the mix." Anyway, just the fact that you recognize the problem for what it is means you're already 90% of the way to the solution.

I think getting the rest of the way there starts with you all sitting down at a table and discussing what you want the sound of your band to be, and then discussing who is going to contribute what pieces and in what quantities to make that happen. You might even want to have your band's manager there, too. If you have a producer and/or sound person, have him present as well. Egos will have to be set aside and this will be the tough part. It may come out in the end that it's YOU who's going to be the prime contributor with YOUR tone, and the guitar will be playing a secondary role by sitting out at the periphery -- and by that I mean probably above you in terms of frequency slotting, maybe adding top fill and sheen/sparkle/bite to what you're doing. Anyway, the big point I wanted to make is that (at least IMO) this all needs to start with with everyone sitting down and planning, without the instruments.

Good luck & I hope this helped a bit.

rodl2005 · #3 10-01-2011, 06:23 AM

100%!
A lot of listening & using your heads & ears & not egos should work it out.

Goodluck

sunbeast · #4 10-01-2011, 02:31 PM

With that much speaker area, what you have over him is much more low end coverage and overall headroom- you don't need to be pumping all that much power to those cabinets to be pushing alot of low end that is likely drowning him out. Also- a volume level of "1" on your preamp says nothing about the sensitivity of your power amp nor the fact that you are pushing a boosted signal via fuzz pedals into the preamp, where you may actually be pushing alot more power than you think even with your preamp at "1". I can use pedals to boost my signal enough that it is clipping my amp with the volume at "3", and turning it up from there isn't going to get me any more volume (and will likely just fry my amp!).

If I were you, the first thing I would do is try playing with just a single large cabinet to see if things balance out better that way. I know that sludge metal is all about the crushing volume, but it seems likely that you are also crushing the drummer with that kind of power, and nothing sounds weaker than a heavy band with drowned out drums! I played in a stoner-metal band for a few years with similar problems, and it was only when we pared down in amps and cabinets that we actually got what we were happy with tonally and at a volume level where our drummer could actually play expressively rather than just beating as hard as he could (and it was still plenty loud to deafen people without earplugs). The best alternative (and probably something you should consider either way) is to sit down with your whole band and try to work with EQs so that you are functioning as a sonic unit rather than fighting each other.

JoshuaTSP · #5 10-03-2011, 07:52 AM

Thanks for the advice!

I'll keep all of that in mind the next time we get together.

I mostly don't want to completely change my tone....since it's taken me two years to get it closer to how I want it.

I've noticed a lot of sludge bassists dial in a really dark scooped tone. It's great for a mix, since it sits under the guitar nicely.....but lacks definition and character IMO.
I don't think I could be happy with that sort of tone.

derridiandrift · #6 10-03-2011, 08:01 AM

Have you thought of changing your tone for different parts of the song? I can envision your sound being a complete sonic wall, and that's fine if you don't have a guitar player in your band, but you do. You might want to approach it the way two guitar players would: they work out their tone together, then they get out of each other's way at the right moments.

shadowmac · #7 10-03-2011, 08:11 AM

This dilemma is not uncommon. A question I would ask first is are the guitars 6 or 7 string. Guitars in the low B range often "step on" what is traditionally the bass frequencies. Second, it depends on how much "space" you need to fill. This will truly dictate tone and volume. For example, I don't particularly like Gene Simmons tone, but it works for KISS because he is filling a lot of space. If John Myung used Gene's tone, it would sound like just a rumble.

To echo an above comment, you (as a band) need to know the role of each instrument.

In HEDDA we use this philosophy: The bass and drums comprise the skeleton; the foundation that drives the body - the rhythm section is the mass that holds the body together. The guitars are body itself, sometimes fat sometimes atmospheric, depending on what the tune calls for. This can be a sticking point for some guitarists...they often times have the need to hear EVERY note they play as though it were the solo. Yep, we fought that same battle...and still do from time to time. Listen to some recordings of the bands you want to emulate...How do they shelve the instruments?

My suggestion is to consider any given frequency to be a 5 pound bag - you can't try to cram 10 pounds of stuff in a 5 pound bag without creating a big mess.

Good Luck.

JM

Son of Bovril · #8 10-03-2011, 08:27 AM

Where are you getting the complaints about the sound from? Audience hearing the PA, audience standing right in front of the stage? Sound engineer?

People standing right in front of the stage always complain about the sound but they know nothing about sound and are probably just getting blasted in the face by your rig and not hearing the PA mix because it is behind or to the sides of them blasting forwards. if the complaints are coming from people further back in the audience then it might just be the sound engineer not getting the mix right. if your engineer is the one complaining then you should try sort it out at the source before your signal goes to FOH

the rig you are running also sounds a bit complicated, mixing speaker sizes is one thing but mixing those same speakers with different signals from different preamps is likely to interfere with each other much more. are you running distortion from both preamps or is one running clean? Another option is to run a clean signal and overlay a dirty signal but put a HPF on it so that the lows stay clean.

My band plays in B with a 7-string guitarist and when we recorded, the bass overdrive sounded good, but we ended up taking it out because the mix was soooo much cleaner and clearer without it. Bass OD or distortion tends to blend/overlap the bass and guitar frequencies more in the mix which is good if you need it but bad if the mix is already too full and needs clarity and/or definition

JoshuaTSP · #9 10-03-2011, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by derridiandrift

Have you thought of changing your tone for different parts of the song? I can envision your sound being a complete sonic wall, and that's fine if you don't have a guitar player in your band, but you do. You might want to approach it the way two guitar players would: they work out their tone together, then they get out of each other's way at the right moments.

Yep, I use different dirt pedals with various tone and gain settings for different parts.

I have a fairly wide range tone....not so much ultra high end, but very full in the mids and lows.

Good point about the two guitarist thing.

it may be that I'm just too loud overall, and my tone is fine?

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowmac

This dilemma is not uncommon. A question I would ask first is are the guitars 6 or 7 string. Guitars in the low B range often "step on" what is traditionally the bass frequencies. Second, it depends on how much "space" you need to fill. This will truly dictate tone and volume. For example, I don't particularly like Gene Simmons tone, but it works for KISS because he is filling a lot of space. If John Myung used Gene's tone, it would sound like just a rumble.

To echo an above comment, you (as a band) need to know the role of each instrument.

In HEDDA we use this philosophy: The bass and drums comprise the skeleton; the foundation that drives the body - the rhythm section is the mass that holds the body together. The guitars are body itself, sometimes fat sometimes atmospheric, depending on what the tune calls for. This can be a sticking point for some guitarists...they often times have the need to hear EVERY note they play as though it were the solo. Yep, we fought that same battle...and still do from time to time. Listen to some recordings of the bands you want to emulate...How do they shelve the instruments?

My suggestion is to consider any given frequency to be a 5 pound bag - you can't try to cram 10 pounds of stuff in a 5 pound bag without creating a big mess.

Good Luck.

JM

6 string guitar tuned to C standard and sometimes dropping the low string for dropped Bb (like dropped D).

I've tailored my tone to fit this band.
We've been at it for almost 2 years I think, and I've evolved my tone over that time. Various gear changes, playing style changes, etc.....
I think my tone is great, but that might not work in a mix as well as I hope it would.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Son of Bovril

Where are you getting the complaints about the sound from? Audience hearing the PA, audience standing right in front of the stage? Sound engineer?

People standing right in front of the stage always complain about the sound but they know nothing about sound and are probably just getting blasted in the face by your rig and not hearing the PA mix because it is behind or to the sides of them blasting forwards. if the complaints are coming from people further back in the audience then it might just be the sound engineer not getting the mix right. if your engineer is the one complaining then you should try sort it out at the source before your signal goes to FOH

The first comment was from a guy in recording college, that recorded a recent demo for us.
He said the sound was "muddy" and we (guitar and bass) "were fighting for the lower mids"

The other was a fellow musician that said in various words that I was too loud, I think?....but he was getting blasted in the face with my rig.

I didn't think I was loud, and the guitarist didn't say anything.....

Quote:

the rig you are running also sounds a bit complicated, mixing speaker sizes is one thing but mixing those same speakers with different signals from different preamps is likely to interfere with each other much more. are you running distortion from both preamps or is one running clean? Another option is to run a clean signal and overlay a dirty signal but put a HPF on it so that the lows stay clean.

I'm running into my pedalboard, then Y cable into the preamps......so both preamp are getting a dirty signal.
Each preamp feeds one side of the power amp, and the channels of the power amp each feed a cab. So preamp A is going through cab A and preamp B is going through cab B.

It is complicated, but it finally sounds awesome.

I considered running clean/dirty, but after I heard both together, it sounded too good to mess with. IMO anyway.

Quote:

My band plays in B with a 7-string guitarist and when we recorded, the bass overdrive sounded good, but we ended up taking it out because the mix was soooo much cleaner and clearer without it. Bass OD or distortion tends to blend/overlap the bass and guitar frequencies more in the mix which is good if you need it but bad if the mix is already too full and needs clarity and/or definition

That's something I've been thinking about as well....since I use fuzz most of the time.

We're sludgy, so clean and defined really isn't one of our highest priorities. Frankly, I even want our recordings to sound a little more organic and dirty as well. I hate all of the new squeaky clean stuff.

...that said, I know I'm filling up a lot of sonic space with my live rig....which is why I tried to scoop it out a little.

We recorded an EP in a pro studio, and I hated my tone on it. The recording sounds great, but does not represent my tone at all, and is very guitar focused (multitracked up the wazoo).

Live, the guitar player doesn't have that layered sound....he's just got more of a crunchy marshall-y type tone with a touch more low end.

I guess I'll give a clean/dirty rig some more consideration......but power chords and a more aggressive pick attack sounds kinda bad clean.

sunbeast · #10 10-03-2011, 05:22 PM

As I mentioned- I had a similar issue with my old stoner metal band. I liked to have an uncharacteristically midrange-heavy tone, and with two cabinets it was just too much. The guitarist eventually responded by starting to use a second rig as well, and rather than help make him cut through more, it just turned the whole mix to mud. In the end, the solution for us was for both of us to cut back on gear (me one 610 instead of the 610 and 215 combo, him one full stack/amp instead of two). We were also able to work on our EQ'ing in a way that made the whole sound much more cohesive- he started EQ'ing a much deeper/ballsier low-mid heavy scooped tone, while I kept the deep bass and high midrange definition. Doing this with the smaller rigs also gave our drummer some room to breathe and make more dynamic drum parts that could still be heard in smaller venues with fairly minimal PA support for the drums.

rpsands · #11 10-03-2011, 05:39 PM

Try scooping at 3-400hz but leaving the rest of the mids intact. Should let the guitar have a little space

oldcatfish · #12 10-03-2011, 06:00 PM

Quote: "I guess I'll give a clean/dirty rig some more consideration......but power chords and a more aggressive pick attack sounds kinda bad clean."

If you don't get the results that you like with the clean/dirty blend, there may be another solution. Try cutting the gain/distortion down a little bit...you may even have the guitar player cut his down.

I used to play guitar in a 2 guitar band and initially got lost in the mix. But I found that when I set the gain without the band around--and then backed it down by about 10% of what I thought it should be, ended up being perfect in a band mix. At first, I thought that it would take the edge off of my tone, but it actually made it sound heavier. It sounds strange, but it gives you more clarity, without changing your overall tone. I got the suggestion from a friend that is a phenomenal musician.

Sartori · #13 10-03-2011, 08:08 PM

If you're fighting over the low mids, maybe cut those on your rig slightly but leave everything else as is.

JoshuaTSP · #14 10-03-2011, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sunbeast

As I mentioned- I had a similar issue with my old stoner metal band. I liked to have an uncharacteristically midrange-heavy tone, and with two cabinets it was just too much. The guitarist eventually responded by starting to use a second rig as well, and rather than help make him cut through more, it just turned the whole mix to mud. In the end, the solution for us was for both of us to cut back on gear (me one 610 instead of the 610 and 215 combo, him one full stack/amp instead of two). We were also able to work on our EQ'ing in a way that made the whole sound much more cohesive- he started EQ'ing a much deeper/ballsier low-mid heavy scooped tone, while I kept the deep bass and high midrange definition. Doing this with the smaller rigs also gave our drummer some room to breathe and make more dynamic drum parts that could still be heard in smaller venues with fairly minimal PA support for the drums.

I never had a problem with just the single 2x15 and whatever head I was running.
I actually ran a 2x15 and 800RB for a while, and it was more than enough.

Why I decided to expand my rig? not sure.....mostly wanted to try a true clean blending system.....since my clean blend pedal wasn't sounding that great.

Thanks for the advice, it seems that you've been through exactly what I'm going through.

JoshuaTSP · #15 10-03-2011, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldcatfish

Quote: "I guess I'll give a clean/dirty rig some more consideration......but power chords and a more aggressive pick attack sounds kinda bad clean."

If you don't get the results that you like with the clean/dirty blend, there may be another solution. Try cutting the gain/distortion down a little bit...you may even have the guitar player cut his down.

I used to play guitar in a 2 guitar band and initially got lost in the mix. But I found that when I set the gain without the band around--and then backed it down by about 10% of what I thought it should be, ended up being perfect in a band mix. At first, I thought that it would take the edge off of my tone, but it actually made it sound heavier. It sounds strange, but it gives you more clarity, without changing your overall tone. I got the suggestion from a friend that is a phenomenal musician.

The hardest part of the clean/dirty rig is blending them just right.

I've been slowly lowering my gain since I started using this new rig.

You're right, heavy fuzz on guitar, mixed with fuzz on the bass probably gets nasty mix-wise quickly.

JoshuaTSP · #16 10-04-2011, 08:29 AM

I also realized that there's a substantial volume jump from my clean tone, to my dirty volume.

The guitar player also dials his dirt pedal in with a little jump in volume.....so the heavy parts really PUNCH.

Mine might be a little bit too much of a volume jump. Something else to work on.

Son of Bovril · #17 10-04-2011, 09:45 AM

Hmm it sounds like you have a pretty good handle on whats going on at least which is more than most people, If you are happy with your sound the way it is then it's really just a case of making it work in a live and studio environment the way you want it to sound.

Studios can sometimes make stuff sound amazing but often you are just getting the engineer's interpretation of what he thinks you should sound like, which isn't always a good thing...

keep playing around with scooping certain frequencies to see if you can find a balance with the guitar or maybe just dropping the volume might help.

PatQ · #18 10-04-2011, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoshuaTSP

I mostly don't want to completely change my tone....since it's taken me two years to get it closer to how I want it.

I know where you're coming from. I have a sound I absolutely love when I play alone or just with the drums - but it's a completely different story when playing with the guitars in the mix.

I love to boost the midrange to make the bass growl, but that's the frequencies where our guitars are... so I - and both guitar players - ended with sounds no one really likes if an instrument is being played alone - but in the mix, it all comes together just fine.

I once watched Slipnot during their soundcheck, the guitar player player a few riffs and I thought "man he must be kidding, that sounds like crap". I sounded AWESOME when all of them started playing...

JoshuaTSP · #19 10-04-2011, 10:28 AM

That's the compromise I'm trying to work on......my ideal tone vs. a tone that works live.

It's hard to get your mind around it.....

"what do you mean my awesome tone needs to change? What do you mean I need to cut through less?"

I suppose that's what happens with Al Cisneros in OM is your tone hero, but you play in a band with guitars. DOH!

NKBassman · #20 10-04-2011, 11:32 AM

Sounds like you're on the right track. Keep making minor tweaks every time you guys get together to jam and you'll find some nice middle ground eventually.

When I first got my tube head I'd jam a bit before the other guys would get to practice and dial in what I thought was a great tone. When the rest of the band started playing things would sound like balls and I'd start tweaking knobs over the course of the night to compensate. More often than not I would end up with a slight mid-cut and everything else around noon, a far cry from where I started.

I guess what I'm trying to say is to not be afraid to adjust your tone from what you think sounds good to what actually sounds good when you're all playing in the same room together at the same time.