Flat -> Meaning

[J.Nuno]

Hey guys,

What exactly does "flat" mean in terms of EQ? What is it precisely and how to achieve it?
(Did the search, looked in the slang list and the wiki).

Cheers!

[Cb4rabid]

If you have a graphic EQ, it means you leave everything at 0dB, meaning you don't boost anything, or cut anything (boost is +, cut is -). It's usually the natural tone of the amp.

[kcole4001]

Flat = no boost or cut.
Basically all modern style controls at '0', or if your amp uses 0-10 style controls (vintage Fender, for example), everything at '5'.

[wcriley]

Everything at '5' on a vintage Fender will not be anywhere close to 'flat'.

[silky smoove]

Originally Posted by wcriley

Everything at '5' on a vintage Fender will not be anywhere close to 'flat'.

Yep. The passive Fender tone stack is typically flat at 2-10-2.

[shackled]

Is every amp different? How can you tell what "flat" is?

[Passinwind]

Originally Posted by shackled

Is every amp different? How can you tell what "flat" is?

It's pretty much pointless to look at it just in terms of the amp. "Flat" through what speakers, in what room, at what location in the room?

[KJung]

Originally Posted by shackled

Is every amp different? How can you tell what "flat" is?

Flat is pretty much a useless concept in electric bass amplification. It is one of an infinite number of EQ curves, and given all the voicing built into bass pickups and preamps, it might or might not sound good.

Since a preamp, a power section and a cabinet all interact with one another, having any single part of the system scope out 'flat' (meaning very few peaks or valleys across the frequency range of the system... typically from around 50hz to around 8K for a full range system) means almost nothing.

I find the actually frequency RANGE of a system impacts the tone much more than a bit of a hump or valley in the low mids or upper mids or whatever. An amp that extends too low, or is attenuated too much up top, or a speaker cab that isn't capable of really reproducing the key range of frequencies of the bass guitar (regardless if it again emphasizes any of the frequencies within that range) can really result in a lack of tonal joy.

IMO. The only way to find out if an entire system is flat is to scope it in a controlled, neutral environment. Of course, once you get on a gig in an uncontrolled environment, you are back where you started!

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by J.Nuno

What exactly does "flat" mean in terms of EQ?

Where electric bass is concerned the term is meaningless. Even with the EQ set for zero boost or cut almost all amps have a built in pre-shape, and the number of speakers with flat response can be counted on the fingers of one hand.
Here's how you set your EQ: Turn the knobs or move the sliders until it sounds good.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Passinwind

It's pretty much pointless to look at it just in terms of the amp. "Flat" through what speakers, in what room, at what location in the room?

Hey Charlie! You again communicated in 50 words what took me 500.

[JTE]

Originally Posted by shackled

Is every amp different? How can you tell what "flat" is?

"Flat" depends on where in the signal chain you're checking it. Now with EQ flat means the EQ section isn't boosting nor cutting anything. That's totally different from whether the REST of the amp adds or subtracts.

And ignore anyone who says all the knobs at five is flat. They clearly don't know about this at all. So, yes, every amp IS different. The tone stack on an Ampeg is different than one one a Fender Showman. MOST old Fender tube pres are closet to flat as said before with the bass and treble at about 2 and the mids at 10.

Now whether "flat" is REALLY important is a whole 'nother thing. I like how my Eden WT-400 sounds with the EQ flat and the enhance off, but I don't have any delusions that what comes out of my speakers, or even what's coming out of the preamp is an exact reproduction of what went into the input jack. And that is the definition of "flat" in audio.

John

[J.Nuno]

I'm a little confused, I admit.

I get it when you say that flat is when there's no cuts or boosts, so assuming I'm using my little combo, turning all knobs to 0 will make it flat.

But what does it have to do with the speakers, location or the room?

Some time ago another TBer said that to try out a bass you should set everything to flat. Then I figured that, for instance, using my little 15w combo, if I turn everything down to 0, the master volume can be next to MAX and it wont sound very loud. So I started thinking, is that really what flat means? "How can I try a bass if I can hear it right" I thought back then.

Of course, on no store will they plug the bass to a weak 15w little box

Still...can you explain a little better?

Thanks

[tdub0199]

It's a linear signal which can not be determined by your ears or the knobs on your amp....
You would use a spectrum analyzer to find the peaks and use the EQ to try and change it.

A Flat EQ has no peaks or valleys at any certain Frequencies, this can change by how many speakers, size of the speakers, the size of the room, the location of the room etc.....

[BigOldHarry]

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

Where electric bass is concerned the term is meaningless. Even with the EQ set for zero boost or cut almost all amps have a built in pre-shape, and the number of speakers with flat response can be counted on the fingers of one hand.
Here's how you set your EQ: Turn the knobs or move the sliders until it sounds good.

Yup. That's why amps from manufacturer to manufacturer or even model to model will sound different, even if they are set "Flat".

[Passinwind]

Originally Posted by J.Nuno

I'm a little confused, I admit.

I get it when you say that flat is when there's no cuts or boosts, so assuming I'm using my little combo, turning all knobs to 0 will make it flat.

But what does it have to do with the speakers, location or the room?

The speakers inherently boost and cut certain frequencies, so sending a flat signal from the amp does not result in an overall flat sound. In the PA world we typically use equalizers to compensate for the coloring in the speaker, but also for the coloring in the room itself. Rooms are tuned boxes and they resonate at different frequencies depending on their dimensions. Also, features like corners and walls reinforce or cut some frequencies, so different parts of the room will sound different to a listener moving around in the room.

Make sense so far?

[J.Nuno]

Originally Posted by Passinwind

The speakers inherently boost and cut certain frequencies, so sending a flat signal from the amp does not result in an overall flat sound. In the PA world we typically use equalizers to compensate for the coloring in the speaker, but also for the coloring in the room itself. Rooms are tuned boxes and they resonate at different frequencies depending on their dimensions. Also, features like corners and walls reinforce or cut some frequencies, so different parts of the room will sound different to a listener moving around in the room.

Make sense so far?

Much better now

Thanks

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by J.Nuno

so assuming I'm using my little combo, turning all knobs to 0 will make it flat.

Maybe, maybe not. Every amp is not the same.

But what does it have to do with the speakers, location or the room?

Every speaker has its own response, as does every room, as does every position in the room.

Some time ago another TBer said that to try out a bass you should set everything to flat.

Don't believe everything you read. If there was a valid reason for having the amp flat there would be no EQ controls at all.

[Muttleybass]

Wow... there's a lot of thought into these responses!

Flat, to me, has always been the EQ set down the middle, with no cuts or boosts. How does a PA/Amp sound if the EQ and tone controls are FLAT? Usually you start with the EQ flat, then you add/remove frequencies/tone to make it sound better ...or, fit into the mix.

If something SOUNDS flat, that's different. It's just another word for lifeless or dull. If the EQ is set flat, and it sounds too bright, you dial back the treble.

As far as frequency response goes, every instrument/voice has it's own wave, or set of frequencies, if you will. A truly flat line would be silence or white noise (all frequencies).

[Mushroo]

Flat is equivalent to driving your car in a straight line.

Yes, it is good to be able to drive straight. But unless your destination happens to be right in front of you, you need to turn right or left sometimes.

EQ gives you the control to get the sound you want. If you have the exact perfect bass, strings, technique, etc. for your style it is possible that flat will be the best sound, but this is unlikely.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Muttleybass

Wow... there's a lot of thought into these responses!

Flat, to me, has always been the EQ set down the middle, with no cuts or boosts. How does a PA/Amp sound if the EQ and tone controls are FLAT? Usually you start with the EQ flat, then you add/remove frequencies/tone to make it sound better ...or, fit into the mix.

If something SOUNDS flat, that's different. It's just another word for lifeless or dull. If the EQ is set flat, and it sounds too bright, you dial back the treble.

As far as frequency response goes, every instrument/voice has it's own wave, or set of frequencies, if you will. A truly flat line would be silence or white noise (all frequencies).

As has been said above, you are confusing 'neutral' (i.e., no boost or cut to the EQ) with 'flat', which means that every frequency within the range of the system has basically the same volume.

Setting an EQ 'neutral' might or might not make an amp 'flat', since as has been said above, many all in one bass amps have a built in EQ curve.

However, as said by a few of us above, it is a meaningless discussion, since once you put a speaker in the signal chain, everything changes. Yes, with the right, sophisticated EQ and scopes and pink noise generators, you could get a bass amp reasonably 'flat' in any given room. However, that doesn't make much sense. For PA/front of house applications, it makes sense, since when you mic up that glorious, peaky, non-flat SVT rig, you want THAT sound to come out of the PA (hence the 'flat' front of house).