Funny thing about "in the mix"...

[zachoff]

Experimentation is strange... When you're a stranger. Tones seem ugly... When they're alone.

So, I've been playing around with my rig. I got the Emperor 215 a couple weeks ago and I've been seeing how it would play with my 810 in my band. Last week I played it 100% by itself. The other guys said it was OK, but couldn't hear me as well as with the 810.

So yesterday for half of the practice I used both cabs together and when I played by myself the other two guys got all wide-eyed and said it's the most devastating tone they'd ever heard and I mostly agreed.

Fast forward to the smoke break (halfway done w/ practice) and while they're outside smoking I change back to just my 810 and play through our set again and both of them said it sounds way better running both speakers. When I told them it was just the 810 they kinda frowned and said it really does sound best in the mix and I agreed.

I hate this stupid notion of tone. Why can't something that sounds so awesome by itself also sound the same level of awesome while sitting in the mix?

[Sundogue]

Originally Posted by zachoff

I hate this stupid notion of tone. Why can't something that sounds so awesome by itself also sound the same level of awesome while sitting in the mix?

Because when you listen to it by yourself, the only thing you are hearing is yourself.

Once you add in all the other instruments, some of "their tone" is interacting with yours and masking some things, while the other parts of your sound that aren't masked appear accentuated.

That's why it's best to keep the volume down at rehearsal and onstage. Because the lower the volume, the less instruments mask each other with overtones that get accentuated at higher volume. At some point high volume leads to just one big soup of droning noise making "tone" a moot point.

[silky smoove]

You're telling a guy running an 810 and a 215 to use lower volume?

[mdogs]

Originally Posted by Sundogue

Because when you listen to it by yourself, the only thing you are hearing is yourself.

Once you add in all the other instruments, some of "their tone" is interacting with yours and masking some things, while the other parts of your sound that aren't masked appear accentuated.

That's why it's best to keep the volume down at rehearsal and onstage. Because the lower the volume, the less instruments mask each other with overtones that get accentuated at higher volume. At some point high volume leads to just one big soup of droning noise making "tone" a moot point.

But, as much as I hate to say this, I can get good tone at lower volumes, but the guitars need a certain level of volume to get the proper sound. My band actually just went through a revamp of our on stage sound, we were playing at a fairly low volume and we were only mildly pleased with our sound. I suggested that we do a slight increase in volume and it has made a big difference in our overall sound and everyone is much happier. We are lucky though, we have a great drummer who we actually have to tell from time to time to play louder!

[D.A.R.K.]

fighting awesome with awesome ain't easy.

[rockstarbassist]

Yup. My tone sounds pretty good to me stand-alone, but in the band mix it probably could use more bass/low end. However once my singer gets his Dual Rec, I should be ok riding in the grindy-mids like I currently do.

[zachoff]

Originally Posted by Sundogue

Because when you listen to it by yourself, the only thing you are hearing is yourself.

Once you add in all the other instruments, some of "their tone" is interacting with yours and masking some things, while the other parts of your sound that aren't masked appear accentuated.

That's why it's best to keep the volume down at rehearsal and onstage. Because the lower the volume, the less instruments mask each other with overtones that get accentuated at higher volume. At some point high volume leads to just one big soup of droning noise making "tone" a moot point.

Surprisingly, we're not super loud. When I was running both cabs my volume was at about 9:00 & when I run my 810 my volume is at about 10:30... With the inputs jumped, of course.

All told it's really not that loud and the guitarist and I can hear each other pretty well and the drummer can hear us both and none of our amps point at anyone. We practice how we'd set up on stage.

Anyway, it's just weird. You'd figure a tone by itself that's awesomer than another tone by itself would also be awesomer in the mix, but it's not in this case.

[Stick_Player]

Why can't something that sounds so awesome by itself also sound the same level of awesome while sitting in the mix?

Masking.

Some of your "awesome" solo frequencies are being masked (i. e., hidden/covered) by frequencies produced by the other instruments' louder "awesome" frequencies.

[Sundogue]

Originally Posted by zachoff

Surprisingly, we're not super loud. When I was running both cabs my volume was at about 9:00 & when I run my 810 my volume is at about 10:30... With the inputs jumped, of course.

All told it's really not that loud and the guitarist and I can hear each other pretty well and the drummer can hear us both and none of our amps point at anyone. We practice how we'd set up on stage.

Anyway, it's just weird. You'd figure a tone by itself that's awesomer than another tone by itself would also be awesomer in the mix, but it's not in this case.

I wasn't necessarily saying that being loud is a problem. It's just that you put it out there that the tone by yourself isn't what it is "in the mix". So, when you add in all the other sounds, parts of what makes your tone will get masked.

The louder you play, the more "masking" will take place, and thus the more adjusting is required to dial that back in. Doesn't mean it's a bad thing, but just something to keep in mind.

I'm all for playing loud within limits of being able to still maintain the sound the band is after. At some point there is a threshold where loud becomes nothing but a wash of indistinguishable tones...and some even like that.

What it boils down to is the tone you like alone will get intertwined with other instruments and their desire for their tone...and it comes down to getting it to work "in the mix", so it will be different.

[babebambi]

I always have difficulty convincing other musicians (if any convincing is needed at all) that the tone they love so much when noodling alone is NOT (as in almost never) the tone they want to use in a mix.

You got to make room for each other.
When we have multiply instruments, no single instrument is required to fill in the entire spectrum any more.

If one instrument is already filling up the entire spectrum with a nice and round tone, where would you be able to fit more?

[JoshuaTSP]

Also note that they couldn't tell the difference.......no one cares about fine tuning your tone but you.

[sobie18]

Originally Posted by Sundogue

Because when you listen to it by yourself, the only thing you are hearing is yourself.

Once you add in all the other instruments, some of "their tone" is interacting with yours and masking some things, while the other parts of your sound that aren't masked appear accentuated.

That's why it's best to keep the volume down at rehearsal and onstage. Because the lower the volume, the less instruments mask each other with overtones that get accentuated at higher volume. At some point high volume leads to just one big soup of droning noise making "tone" a moot point.

I would like to tattoo this to my 2 guitarists' faces!!!

[liquid sunshine]

try eqing around each other alittle you cut where they boost the cut where you boost sometimes subtle changes can be enough to make a difference.
also if you can record your band when mixing a practice you can play with parametric eqs and really learn alot about how to sound better as a whole

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by JoshuaTSP

Also note that they couldn't tell the difference.......no one cares about fine tuning your tone but you.

play a behringer and see if nobody cares.

[rockstarbassist]

Jimmy for the TKO.

If you're not playing w/ guys that can tell the diff between an awesome Mesa or SVT rig and a 80W Bugera 110 combo, then I'd shudder at what their guitard rigs sound like...

[BigOldHarry]

Originally Posted by silky smoove

You're telling a guy running an 810 and a 215 to use lower volume?

Yeah, that's a nutty amount of air to move. If I thought I needed that much volume, I'd count on FOH to handled it!

[tangentmusic]

Tell the guys to stop treadin' on your Sonic Turf!
Your not the only one that needs to "sit in the mix" you know..

[zachoff]

Originally Posted by BigOldHarry

Yeah, that's a nutty amount of air to move. If I thought I needed that much volume, I'd count on FOH to handled it!

At a lot of our shows, we are the FOH. There's a couple places we play where they mic the vocals, kick, and snare and that's it.

Again though... I don't turn up much with both speakers and we're not overpowering our drummer by any means. He's not mic'd, my guitar player has 2 2x12s and our PA speakers are 2 4x8 Traynors into a 300W Behringer PA. It's loud enough, but I don't go home with my ears ringing or anything.

[Sartori]

Different rigs have to be EQ'd differently. With my 1x15 + 2x10 rig, I was dialing the lows out because with them in, it was too muddy.

With my 2x15, I find I can set the lows flat instead of dialing them out and it works well in the mix. Besides being louder, my 2x15 is more present in the mix without me having to EQ it quite as nasty.

[Drifta]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

play a behringer and see if nobody cares.

I personally don't recommend this, Last time I played a behringer it caught fire at my guitarists house. again, it's just my experience.