Gallien Kreuger Official Club Part 7

[Chef]

sweet.

[Bassist30]

Any news when the Fusion 800 is available?

[scottfeldstein]

Hey, I have a question for my GK brethren. Gallien-Kreuger's biamp solution, a small 50w amp with its own knob driving the tweeters and a a more powerful amp to drive the woofers--is an over-engineered solution. Like a solution looking for a problem.

What's the real value of this kind of system? Its it a lot? What does it really give you sound-wise and performance-wise?

[Vic]

Originally Posted by scottfeldstein

Hey, I have a question for my GK brethren. Gallien-Kreuger's biamp solution, a small 50w amp with its own knob driving the tweeters and a a more powerful amp to drive the woofers--is an over-engineered solution. Like a solution looking for a problem.

What's the real value of this kind of system? Its it a lot? What does it really give you sound-wise and performance-wise?

It's just a more accurate way of controlling the high end without affecting tone. An attenuator affects tone as you vary it.

[worshiprocker]

I need some advise. I am currently running a 4ohm 810 cab and a 1001rb head. I love this head!! I am adding a 2nd 4 ohm cab. What should I do? here is what I'm looking at doing.

1.)2001rb head
2.)split my signal to 2 1001rb amps (not sure how)
3.)split my signal to 2 mb500 or mb800 amps (not sure how)

Thanks in advance

[B-string]

The 2001RB will work great. You can also use an instrument cable from your 1001RB head's effects send to the effects return of a second amp and cab. Your 1001RB will be the Master preamp for both amp heads.

[Vic]

Originally Posted by worshiprocker

I need some advise. I am currently running a 4ohm 810 cab and a 1001rb head. I love this head!! I am adding a 2nd 4 ohm cab. What should I do? here is what I'm looking at doing.

1.)2001rb head
2.)split my signal to 2 1001rb amps (not sure how)
3.)split my signal to 2 mb500 or mb800 amps (not sure how)

Thanks in advance

If you love the 1001rb, I'd just stick with what you love. Get a second 1001rb and slave it from the first one. I believe the tuner out could be used to go into the input of the second amp, as I read the manual/block diagram. Otherwise, something could possibly be done with the effects loops too, but I think the tuner out should work.

[Vic]

Originally Posted by B-string

The 2001RB will work great. You can also use an instrument cable from your 1001RB head's effects send to the effects return of a second amp and cab. Your 1001RB will be the Master preamp for both amp heads.

Using that method, he'd actually have to drive both returns (using a "y" cable), since the effects loops are in series, otherwise he'd get no sound from the first amp. He might also have to put a dummy plug in the send of the second amp to disconnect the preamp and avoid connecting two "outputs" together, which could be a problem.

I like the tuner out idea best, myself.

The upside to using the effects loop is, he only has one EQ to worry about. The downside is I think it complicates the connections.

The upside of the tuner method is you only need the kind of cables you always have in your bag. The downside is you have more EQ knobs to deal with.

[B-string]

The interrupt is in the effects return jack Vic, not the effects send. Anything plugged into the effects send will not affect amp operation(so long as there is no short to ground).

[worshiprocker]

Originally Posted by B-string

The 2001RB will work great. You can also use an instrument cable from your 1001RB head's effects send to the effects return of a second amp and cab. Your 1001RB will be the Master preamp for both amp heads.

Originally Posted by Vic

If you love the 1001rb, I'd just stick with what you love. Get a second 1001rb and slave it from the first one. I believe the tuner out could be used to go into the input of the second amp, as I read the manual/block diagram. Otherwise, something could possibly be done with the effects loops too, but I think the tuner out should work.

Thanks guys! i think that is what I'm going to do. I hadn't even really thought about slaving a 2nd amp.

now to shop.... going the 1001rb route might save me some $$ too.

[Vic]

Originally Posted by B-string

The interrupt is in the effects return jack Vic, not the effects send. Anything plugged into the effects send will not affect amp operation(so long as there is no short to ground).

The block diagram is misleading, maybe wrong. You have to read the text.

21) Effects Send: When used, the signal path is
in-series, meaning all of the signal goes through the
Effects Loop.

22) Effects Return: Returns the Effects Loop signal
to the signal path. May also be used as a secondary
input for another instrument or CD player. The preamp
signal is not interupted if the Send jack is not used.

Therefore, if you plug anything into the return and leave the send alone, you get both the bass and the CD player (or second instrument). In other words, the interrupt is on the send, not the return. This is typical of other amps, too.

[B-string]

Using the actual schematics and units, yes the text is incorrect. RAG set up the interrupt on the effects return jack from day one to make slaving easy.
People who have tried the text always come around to ask why they no longer hear their bass
Schematic of the preamp available if you PM me an email address.

[worshiprocker]

so is the volume controlled with only the master amp? would this work with a power amp instead of another 1001rb (interim fix)

[B-string]

Originally Posted by worshiprocker

so is the volume controlled with only the master amp? would this work with a power amp instead of another 1001rb (interim fix)

Only tone and input gain control from the first amp's pre. Master volumes (Woofer/tweeter) are still active on the slaved G-K. A poweramp may work if the input sensitivity of the poweramp is high enough. The Master would have to be the poweramps input attenuator though.

[jquinn86]

Do the MB series heads work the same with the effects loops. I would like to be able to plug an iPod into the effects return without losing the bass signal. Couldn't do that with the 1001rb and now I understand why.

[Vic]

Originally Posted by B-string

Using the actual schematics and units, yes the text is incorrect. RAG set up the interrupt on the effects return jack from day one to make slaving easy.
People who have tried the text always come around to ask why they no longer hear their bass
Schematic of the preamp available if you PM me an email address.

Nope, I trust you.

However, I'm going to assume that he switched gears at some point and just never updated the manual. Maybe originally he figured most people would want to plug in a practice device, but then later had more people ask about slaving and redesigned the amp to change the "feature" from one to the other.

I'll see him at the NAMM show, I think I'll ask, because now I'm curious when/why.

[Chef]

Over engineered solution??????

I disagree with this!

It's a nicely engineered solution to a real problem!

The problem:
overdrive sounds like arse thru a horn.

How to fix it?
Give the horn it's own power amp; one that stays clean.
Send your main, overdriven power amp, only to the paper woofers.
Give separate volume controls to each, so you can control the blend of the two.

Frankly, this is the feature that really sets the RB series amps apart from everything else on the market, and, the feature I like the most about them.

Admittedly, I'm an overdrive hater by nature.
This really changes that for me.
I can add "the GK grit/grind/growl" to the woofer signal, and keep a nice clean, clear top end as well.

For me, that's really cool.

ymmv, etc.

Originally Posted by scottfeldstein

Hey, I have a question for my GK brethren. Gallien-Kreuger's biamp solution, a small 50w amp with its own knob driving the tweeters and a a more powerful amp to drive the woofers--is an over-engineered solution. Like a solution looking for a problem.

What's the real value of this kind of system? Its it a lot? What does it really give you sound-wise and performance-wise?

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Vic

It's just a more accurate way of controlling the high end without affecting tone. An attenuator affects tone as you vary it.

The tonal impact of an attenuator on a high crossed over tweeter is trivial with a capital 'T'. (with a lower crossed over mid driver or true biamp rig (subs, mids, highs), active crossovers have a number of advantages).

Per Chef's post, for some, the primary advantage of the biamping of a tweeter in a bass rig is to allow the 'GK grind' (i.e., upper midrange and treble distortion) to be isolated to the top end of the drivers, since reproducing a highly distorted upper treble signal through a tweeter is one of the most unpleasant things you can do.

For those who use the GK set to a relatively clean tone, you would notice very little if any difference running in 'full range mode' versus 'biamp mode'.

The big question regarding the OP's point about 'overdesign' is how many GK users both like the upper midrange distorted tone of a 'pushed/boost' GK tone, and also want a clean upper treble tweeter response. This is, to the OP's point, a bit of a 'solution without a problem' for the vast majority of users.

I always ran my 700RB in full range mode (I had the combo version back in the day). I couldn't hear any difference in tone at all, and you actually get a single knob 'master volume' when running full range. If I remember correctly, when you run in biamp mode, you continually have to adjust the 'blend' of the woofer/tweeter as you turn up, which is pretty tedious.

IMO, a much better option for 'front of the amp panel' tweeter control is a variable hi pass (like on the Markbass heads). That is a great way to sculpt the output of a tweeter in 'real time'. The RB heads do have a 'two setting hi pass' switch for the top end which is pretty cool (I think they call it 'papercone' or something, which chops the upper treble off). Nice to have that variable IMO.

When this design feature came out a number of years ago, I thought it was a pretty clever way to 'motivate' those who purchased a GK head to also purchase a GK cab (back in the day, GK always did much better in the market with their heads than with their cabs). Nice way to kind of provide a 'benefit' to buying the full 'GK rig', even if that benefit would be pretty subtle for most (IMO) bassists.

[tombowlus]

Originally Posted by scottfeldstein

Hey, I have a question for my GK brethren. Gallien-Kreuger's biamp solution, a small 50w amp with its own knob driving the tweeters and a a more powerful amp to drive the woofers--is an over-engineered solution. Like a solution looking for a problem.

What's the real value of this kind of system? Its it a lot? What does it really give you sound-wise and performance-wise?

To me, the really interesting advantage of this setup is that it allows you to push your drivers hard, even with some cone breakup, and keep your tweeter clean. I really didn't fully appreciate this system until I used it in a live situation.

[Vic]

I hadn't even considered the overdrive thing... totally off my radar. I stand corrected.