Genz Benz S9 DI Question??

[FuzzBoxVoodoo]

I would like to get a more live sound that represents what I actually hear out of my S9.
The DI is a little to filtered for me compared to the Preamp out that I used to run into the Board from my True Voice LowEnd Preamp,I really liked the fact that "my sound" was being sent to the F.O.H.,as it is now I run my stage cab a little to loud so that I get some of that goodness out to the crowd.
I want the same sound I get on stage to come through the PA.
Is there any reason I cant use the Effects send on the Shuttle and just use the -30db cut on the Board that I have allways used with my other preamp?
Thanks Steve

[msmucr]

Hello Steve,

output signal coming to Shuttle XLR DI out is taken from RETURN jack. Look at block diagram in Shuttle Manual. That means, if you set DI out to POST and LINE level and don't have any effect connected to FX loop, you'll get same signal as you have on SEND output jack.

Aside from this, DI out on Shuttle doesn't sound filtered to me (actually one of best built-in DI, IMO). Difference, you feel, is probably due to different inherent voicing of Low End True Voice and Shuttle preamp.

My recommendation is to use mic (RE-20 or Senn 421 are my favourite) for capturing your cabinet sound (usually fatter, less overall highs with some sizzle coming from tweeter) and blend it with DI signal.
There could be some additional hassles with it (possible phase shift between signals, bleeding on some stages, additional time for setup this before gig). But it's usually worth of it.. For sure it depends on your sound engineer and stage, where you play. I know bass guys, who allways bring their favourite mics to larger live gigs as important part of "their" sound.

Best regards

Michal

[KJung]

+1 The tone you are hearing is obviously greatly impacted by your cabinet. Sending a post EQ signal to the board often actually works AGAINST you 'getting your sound to the board', since the PA speakers probably require massively different EQing than your stage cab.

Per the above, either mic your cab, or if you work with sound professionals that have a clue, have them come up and listen to your stage sound, and sent them a clean, non EQ'd signal so that can work with it more easily. Of course, if you have a lot of distortion or effects in your tone, that won't work very well, but if you run relatively clean, you might be surprised!

[FuzzBoxVoodoo]

If there is time at tonights gig I am going to try the effects line out to the Board just out of curiosity to see if I can capture the same open bright sound that I get from the cab and what I used to get out of my other preamp when it was run through the board.
I have noticed that most PA cabs tend to be more flat than bass cabs that can have alot of different characteristics but I have gotten very close to the same sound out of the PA before.
The EQ on the shuttle is pretty much flat and I dont run any distortion with the exception of 2 songs.
I do the sound myself so the board is up on stage next to my bass rig if that sheds some light on my place on the ladder,I have only played one bar that had a sound guy and he was terrible.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by FuzzBoxVoodoo

If there is time at tonights gig I am going to try the effects line out to the Board just out of curiosity to see if I can capture the same open bright sound that I get from the cab and what I used to get out of my other preamp when it was run through the board.
I have noticed that most PA cabs tend to be more flat than bass cabs that can have alot of different characteristics but I have gotten very close to the same sound out of the PA before.
The EQ on the shuttle is pretty much flat and I dont run any distortion with the exception of 2 songs.
I do the sound myself so the board is up on stage next to my bass rig if that sheds some light on my place on the ladder,I have only played one bar that had a sound guy and he was terrible.

My guess is, the pre EQ setting on the Shuttle DI will be closer to your TrueVoice to the board tone. Worth a try.

[agedhorse]

I suspect that you are hearing the voicing of the bass cabinet that is more to your liking (near field) but the PA speaker system is going to be voiced more flat and the difference you wish to hear (you are walking out in front of the PA to make your judgement of the sound of the bass in the PA right?) should be easy to accomodate by a good sound guy and the console eq.

I would start with a pre-eq signal so that the console gets the identical signal that your bass puts out. This gives the FOH guy everything to work with.

The post eq DI signal is derived from the same point that the effects send/return is.

This is also assuming that you have an adequate PA for the job.

[FuzzBoxVoodoo]

The Sound guy is me unfortunatly Im doing well enough that we get compliments on the sound which is good enough for me.
My PA is as follows,Allen Heath 16 channel board, Jbl 2x15 mains with a GB18 sub,Mackie 1400 for the mains and Carvin DCM1500 for subs and monitor all crossed through a BBE sound managment crossover.
I have tried pre and post signal but because I run the S9 so flat there isnt much difference at all.
I was under the impression from what I have heard with my ears that the DI seems to filter down the signal a little to be able to clean it up for the board,seems like all DI's lack that luster that the pre/amp provide.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by FuzzBoxVoodoo

I was under the impression from what I have heard with my ears that the DI seems to filter down the signal a little to be able to clean it up for the board,seems like all DI's lack that luster that the pre/amp provide.

and this is a huge reason i went back to micing a couple years ago, and why i was always loath to send a pre-eq signal even when i was di'ing. just never cared for that tone that comes out of di's.

[agedhorse]

There is no filtering whatsoever in the DI output. It's essentially a straight wire with gain.

[TomB]

Originally Posted by agedhorse

There is no filtering whatsoever in the DI output. It's essentially a straight wire with gain.

Oh good... here's a chance for me to ask again a question to which I missed the answer in the Streamliner thread: Is the DI output level on the Shuttle and Streamliner controlled by the preamp volume control when in the "pre" mode? How about in the "post" mode? Thanks.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by TomB

Oh good... here's a chance for me to ask again a question to which I missed the answer in the Streamliner thread: Is the DI output level on the Shuttle and Streamliner controlled by the preamp volume control when in the "pre" mode? How about in the "post" mode? Thanks.

I would assume like in virtually every on-board DI that I'm aware of, pre EQ means pre everything (the preamp gain control won't impact the signal) and in post EQ setting, everything is through the DI except the master volume.

In other words, if you would want your tube overdrive through the DI, you would use post EQ mode.

Agedhorse can confirm, just in case this DI is different than most.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

and this is a huge reason i went back to micing a couple years ago, and why i was always loath to send a pre-eq signal even when i was di'ing. just never cared for that tone that comes out of di's.

Actually, per Agedhorse's comment, the reason you went back to mic'ing is because you generate a bit more of your tone from the amp and cab than many of us who use a more 'PA like' backline system, and you don't particularly like the sound of your bass running directly into a board. That, of course, is reasonable, but is not a 'problem' of on-board DI's, which are almost always just a pure but buffered (active) signal to the board.

[agedhorse]

Originally Posted by KJung

I would assume like in virtually every on-board DI that I'm aware of, pre EQ means pre everything (the preamp gain control won't impact the signal) and in post EQ setting, everything is through the DI except the master volume.

In other words, if you would want your tube overdrive through the DI, you would use post EQ mode.

Agedhorse can confirm, just in case this DI is different than most.

Correct.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by KJung

Actually, per Agedhorse's comment, the reason you went back to mic'ing is because you generate a bit more of your tone from the amp and cab than many of us who use a more 'PA like' backline system, and you don't particularly like the sound of your bass running directly into a board. That, of course, is reasonable, but is not a 'problem' of on-board DI's, which are almost always just a pure but buffered (active) signal to the board.

actually, the reason i wanted to go post-eq is because i wanted to make sure the audience heard a signal that was at least processed through tube(s) as opposed to a pure but buffered signal to the board, which lacked the luster that a tube preamp provides. i was addressing that part of fuzzbox's post, not the reasons why. should have edited that "filter" part out to avoid confusion. i've got the flu...can't think as straight as usual.

[TomB]

Originally Posted by agedhorse

There is no filtering whatsoever in the DI output. It's essentially a straight wire with gain.

That makes sense, it's essentially an on-board DI box. It certainly hasn't always been the default. My mid-90's Eden WT places the DI after the gain but pre-EQ. It's also equipped with its own DI level control, but has no pre-post switching capability. That layout's handy for muting the entire output with the gain control since there's no mute function on the amp per se. Can I assume that the mute switch mutes the GB DI output?

I also tried out a very early serial # Walkabout that actually had the unswitched DI placed AFTER the master volume control. I struggled with it during one memorable sound check before I figured it out. Mesa at the time said it was a good way to go. I returned it. I would imagine they've redesigned that circuit since seeing how well-loved it seems to be.

It sounds like the Shuttle/Streamliner circuit logic is very well thought out. I look forward to trying out a Streamliner soon.