Genz Benz Shuttle Confusion

[topper]

Ok, I recently picked up a used Genz Benz Shuttle 6.0. I'm looking at the matching Genz cabs and I'm confused.

The amp puts out 375 watts at 8 ohms, but I see it paired with the STL-12T cab as the Shuttle-12T and that cab is only rated at 300 watts.

So the Shuttle 12-T is a 300 watt cab paired with a 375 watt amp. Isn't that risking some speaker damage?

Should I be concerned about this or would the STL-12T be fine paired with that amp?

[DWBass]

Unless you turn the amp all the way up and max everything, there shouldn't be an issue! The amps are designed specifically to be used with those cabs at 8ohms. They fully open up at 4ohms.

[hairscrambled]

The amp should always have more output than the speaker's power handling. It'll work well.

[trowaclown]

Originally Posted by hairscrambled

The amp should always have more output than the speaker's power handling. It'll work well.

I'm not sure if that's true. That's the underpowering myth ain't it?

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by trowaclown

I'm not sure if that's true. That's the underpowering myth ain't it?

yes, it is indeed the underpowering myth. judicious use of the volume knob will prevent any problems.

[agedhorse]

The matching of speakers and amps is not an exact science (actually it is an exact science for those of us who deal with all of the variables every day) but there is a fair amount of leeway based on how the numbers are interpreted and applied.

Speaker power handling is not one single number but a set of numbers relative to frequency (for the mechanical limits) and a set of numbers relative to time (for thermal limits). For low frequency drivers, the mechanical limits are generally the first ones reached and typically at frequencies around the -3dB point of the response runs roughly 1.5x the thermal or "continuous" rating of the speaker. While a speaker may take more than this, it's life begins to shorten dramaticly when driven beyond it's linear limits. How much shorter depends on how hard, and how low it's driven.

The "underpowering damages speakers" is a complete myth... but with a bit of a twist of truth. When you overdrive an amp hard, most (not all) amps will deliver almost twice it's rated power, so an amp that may appear to be underpowering a speaker is really overpowering. Also, the increased harmonics of an overdriven amp produces more energy in the higher frequencies which can lead to tweeter damage as tweeters are matched to speaker systems based on the typical HF content in a signal. If you overdrive the signal, you may increase this HF ratio by 2 or 3 times, again overpowering the device.

Hope this helps.

[Fretlessboy]

with the "t" cabinets it is killer. I use the combo a lot and really want the 12t extension...that would make it capble of almost anything.
It is my understanding that more speakers are blown due to underpowered amps clipping than there are because minimaly overpowering them.

[bongomania]

F-boy, please re-read Agedhorse's post above yours.

[trowaclown]

Originally Posted by agedhorse

Hope this helps.

It does actually, and boy I'm glad I major in economics and not engineering!

I guess the rule of thumb still applies, which is to use your ears.

[mcr23]

Originally Posted by agedhorse

The matching of speakers and amps is not an exact science (actually it is an exact science for those of us who deal with all of the variables every day) but there is a fair amount of leeway based on how the numbers are interpreted and applied.

Speaker power handling is not one single number but a set of numbers relative to frequency (for the mechanical limits) and a set of numbers relative to time (for thermal limits). For low frequency drivers, the mechanical limits are generally the first ones reached and typically at frequencies around the -3dB point of the response runs roughly 1.5x the thermal or "continuous" rating of the speaker. While a speaker may take more than this, it's life begins to shorten dramaticly when driven beyond it's linear limits. How much shorter depends on how hard, and how low it's driven.

The "underpowering damages speakers" is a complete myth... but with a bit of a twist of truth. When you overdrive an amp hard, most (not all) amps will deliver almost twice it's rated power, so an amp that may appear to be underpowering a speaker is really overpowering. Also, the increased harmonics of an overdriven amp produces more energy in the higher frequencies which can lead to tweeter damage as tweeters are matched to speaker systems based on the typical HF content in a signal. If you overdrive the signal, you may increase this HF ratio by 2 or 3 times, again overpowering the device.

Hope this helps.

That was very helpful for me because I was looking at the 6.0 and worries in the back of my mind that pairing it with a 500W rated 210 cab and a 250W rated 112 that it wouldn't have the horsepower--in which case I need to look at the 9.0.

Thanks a lot!

[grumpyjfc]

Originally Posted by agedhorse

The matching of speakers and amps is not an exact science (actually it is an exact science for those of us who deal with all of the variables every day) but there is a fair amount of leeway based on how the numbers are interpreted and applied.

Speaker power handling is not one single number but a set of numbers relative to frequency (for the mechanical limits) and a set of numbers relative to time (for thermal limits). For low frequency drivers, the mechanical limits are generally the first ones reached and typically at frequencies around the -3dB point of the response runs roughly 1.5x the thermal or "continuous" rating of the speaker. While a speaker may take more than this, it's life begins to shorten dramaticly when driven beyond it's linear limits. How much shorter depends on how hard, and how low it's driven.

The "underpowering damages speakers" is a complete myth... but with a bit of a twist of truth. When you overdrive an amp hard, most (not all) amps will deliver almost twice it's rated power, so an amp that may appear to be underpowering a speaker is really overpowering. Also, the increased harmonics of an overdriven amp produces more energy in the higher frequencies which can lead to tweeter damage as tweeters are matched to speaker systems based on the typical HF content in a signal. If you overdrive the signal, you may increase this HF ratio by 2 or 3 times, again overpowering the device.

Hope this helps.

My head hurts

[agedhorse]

Originally Posted by grumpyjfc

My head hurts

Better your head now than your wallet after blowing a speaker though

[agedhorse]

Originally Posted by Fretlessboy

It is my understanding that more speakers are blown due to underpowered amps clipping than there are because minimaly overpowering them.

These days, probably not. With the number of folks (especially in pro audio) using amps with "stupid power" and a lack of self restraint or common sense, I see a lot of drivers damaged from way too much power. Drivers with the voice coils driven all the way out of the gaps, cones crumpled, spiders torn etc.

[grumpyjfc]

Originally Posted by agedhorse

Better your head now than your wallet after blowing a speaker though

Word!

[Fretlessboy]

lol, well you are the engineer...
I have always heard if you use an underpowered to push to hard, what you end up pushing is boardering a square wave and this is where failure comes... I am glad I learned something today...yahoo

TY Horse

Originally Posted by agedhorse

These days, probably not. With the number of folks (especially in pro audio) using amps with "stupid power" and a lack of self restraint or common sense, I see a lot of drivers damaged from way too much power. Drivers with the voice coils driven all the way out of the gaps, cones crumpled, spiders torn etc.

[topper]

Thanks that does help. It still seems like a bit of a mismatch on GB's part to pair a 300 watt speaker with a 375 watt amp.

I've got a 250 1x12 cab that I really like, but I've been hesitant to use it with the Shuttle 6.0

I realize if I'm careful with the volume I won't damage the speaker, but I guess I just don't trust myself. If I'm at a gig and need a little more, I think the temptation would be pretty strong to turn it up.

Sounds like I wouldn't have much to worry about with the Suttle 12-T, but I think I'm going to be pretty careful with my existing 1x12 250 watt cab.

[Fretlessboy]

Just listen to it as you are playing. If it sounds clean you are good to go. On a few occassions I pushed the NeoX12 with the GBE1200...it sounded great and I didn't blow nothing.
Let your ear keep you in the ballpark volume wise

[agedhorse]

Taking an underpowered amp and pushing it into hard clipping can result in the amp delivering up to twice it's rated power, hence the overpowering. With today's big amps, this is generally not much of a problem anymore, now it's blowing the driver to bits rather than the old thermal failures.

[Jazzdogg]

When I was starting out and 50-100 watt amps were commonplace, we used to say there was no such thing as too much headroom. Now that powerful amps are becoming far more available, however, perhaps there is such a thing as too much headroom for those who don't engage both their ears and their brains when playing.

When we used to push our old, underpowered, amps beyond reason, cabinets that contained tweeters were most prone to damage; my old woofer-only cabs sounded like crap when pushed too hard with 50 or 100 watts, but suffered no lasting damage.