Getting along with your drummer's kick drum

[lo-freq]

I just recently found this out.
Our drummer uses an e-kit and has a relatively small stage drum amp that he usually uses.
At our last gig, he brought his larger amp that has a 15" woofer.
I found that if I cut my low end back a bit from where I usually run it, the stage sound improves dramatically.
I guess other bassist's experience will depend on how they monitor their drums on stage (if at all) and how hard your drummer kicks his kick.
If your drummer is running his kick drum through the PA and stage monitors, when you add more low boost, you and he (or she) are generally going to overwhelm the stage (& possibly the whole venue) with low rumble which will muck-up the sound of the entire band.
You have to EQ based on the whole band's sound for each venue for a given volume level (if the decibel levels go up the low end will need to come down more).
You just need to complement (not compliment) the kick down low and make sure you have a solid tone that isn't boomy. More midrange to cut through, more low-mids if you want more punch.
I can't believe it took me so long to catch on to this sound recipe, but my band's sound is so much clearer & cleaner now and the low end overall is just great.

I would guess that acoustic kits are probably not as prone to the issues we have had, but I'm not sure.

[TortillaChip520]

What genre of music do you play?

Usually the bass drum should be eq'd with a bit more mids so that it doesn't BOOM so much as it thuds.

[lo-freq]

Originally Posted by TortillaChip520

What genre of music do you play?

Usually the bass drum should be eq'd with a bit more mids so that it doesn't BOOM so much as it thuds.

Yeah, we had to dial back the low end on our drummer's amp settings as well.

We play a little bit of just about everything, I guess more '80's rock than anything else.

Current Song List (new songs added on a regular basis):

“You Shook Me All Night Long” – AC/DC
"Dirty Deeds" – AC/DC
“Takin' Care of Business” – Bachman-Turner Overdrive
“Come Together” – Beatles (Aerosmith Version)
“Hit Me With Your Best Shot” – Pat Benatar
“She Talks To Angels” – The Black Crowes
“Wanted Dead Or Alive” – Bon Jovi
“Margaritaville” – Jimmy Buffet
“Just What I Needed” – The Cars
“Give Me One Reason” – Tracy Chapman
“I Want You To Want Me” – Cheap Trick
“Oh Yeah” – Chickenfoot
“Should I Stay or Should I Go” – The Clash
“Sunshine Of Your Love” – Cream
“Proud Mary” – Creedence (Tina Turner Version)
“Over You” – Daughtry
"Pour Some Sugar On Me" – Def Leppard
“Hotel California” – The Eagles
“Inside Out” – Eve 6
“I’m The Only One” – Melissa Etheridge
“What’s Up” – Four Non Blondes
“All Right Now” – Free
“Sweet Child O’ Mine” – Guns ‘N Roses
“I Get Off” – Halestorm
“Alone” – Heart
"Baracuda" – Heart
"Long Cool Woman In a Black Dress" – The Hollies
“White Rabbit” – Jefferson Airplane
"I Love Rock & Roll" – Joan Jett
“Don’t Stop Believing” – Journey
“Lights” – Journey
"Separate Ways (Worlds Apart)" – Journey
"Rock & Roll All Night" – Kiss
"Rock & Roll" – Led Zeppelin
"My Own Worst Enemy" – Lit
“Gimme Three Steps” – Lynyrd Skynyrd
“Sweet Home Alabama” – Lynyrd Skynyrd
“Sex And Candy” – Marcy’s Playground
“Independence Day” – Martina McBride
“Black Velvet” – Alanah Myles
“Rockstar” – Nickelback
“So What” – Pink
“Burning Love” – Elvis Presley (Wynonna Judd Version)
“Another One Bites The Dust” – Queen
“Crazy Little Thing Called Love” – Queen
“What I Like About You” – The Romantics
“Old Time Rock And Roll” – Bob Seger
“Second Chance” – Shinedown
“Born To Be Wild” – Steppenwolf
“Possum Kingdom” – The Toadies
“Everything About You” – Ugly Kid Joe
"Before He Cheats" – Carrie Underwood
"Last Name" – Carrie Underwood
“You Really Got Me” – Van Halen
“Play That Funky Music” – Wild Cherry
“Here For The Party” – Gretchen Wilson
“Redneck Woman” – Gretchen Wilson
“Jailhouse Rock” – ZZ Top
“La Grange” – ZZ Top
“Sharp Dressed Man” – ZZ Top

[JimmyM]

i'm paraphrasing bill fm here...as well as about 1000 soundmen and engineers:

every instrument has a frequency power slot. usually in live or recorded music, the bass drum usually gets a lot of low end added to it to give it that whoomp at the 40-60 hz mark. but if you do the same to the bass, then you've got two instruments competing for that sonic space and stepping on each other, creating mud. so you give the bass drum the lowest part, and high pass the bass at between 60-80 because its power slot for whoomp is more at the 125-200 hz area.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by TortillaChip520

What genre of music do you play?

Usually the bass drum should be eq'd with a bit more mids so that it doesn't BOOM so much as it thuds.

and get in the way of my bass's power zone? not on your nellie!

[tommixx]

Originally Posted by TortillaChip520

What genre of music do you play?

Usually the bass drum should be eq'd with a bit more mids so that it doesn't BOOM so much as it thuds.

I have a really nice PA and this may not apply if you don't have the PA to reap the benefits BUT...

Generally speaking on a kick I like to boost at about 25 to 50 HZ (preferably down around 28 to 32 hz depending on the kick) cut about 800 hz as much as possible, add some 2k to 3.5 k and then go up to about 7 k to 12 K to add some air (depending on how much other stuff is going into the kick mic)...

Of course this is not a rule and each drum and drummer are different but it works pretty well most of the time. I also keep my bass pre fairly flat (with a slight low boost into a PA and recording generally) on my SR5s. The combination of an SR5 and a well tuned kick drum is just THE TONE through a PA for me because they compliment each other so well. I use the kick to give the thickness and that nice round bottom and the bass just cuts through from there. I generally have the kick drum mixed slightly below the lead vocal with the bass and snare drum at the same level as the lead vocal for a well balanced mix. Everything else is usually filled in with panning and subtle (or not so subtle) EQ. Generally speaking I like to center the frequencies at about 40 hz, (which I generally cut) 200 to 400 hz,(slight boost or cut depending on the mix) around 2 to 4 K (slight boost ONLY if necessary to add some zing) and then about 6 to 7K (slight boost if necessary) or so on the bass (to add some air). I NEVER find it necessary to boost them all and never do any drastic EQ unless something is just not working...

YMMV and this is just my experience! It is best to experiment as much as possible and learn what works for you...

Peace,

T

[Broadbent]

Cater to the venue! Everybody has there place in the sound spectrum(ours is low mids) but again each venue is different. nothing is set in stone.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Broadbent

Cater to the venue! Everybody has there place in the sound spectrum(ours is low mids) but again each venue is different. nothing is set in stone.

absolutely 100% true. but there are some guidelines that work very well in all rooms. of course they aren't set in stone, but in general they do work.

[rpsands]

Keep your LF sources on stage together, too.

[Calaverasgrande]

If the band is tight it shouldn't matter if the bass and kick drum are in a similar frequency range. The bass should lock on to the kick (maybe a hair of a micro second after the kick actually). If they sound like one unit together it is immense! To me this is a problem with a lot of modern music, recording esp. Each instrument is totally distinguishable from all the others, panned in its own space with its own reverb. Listen to some good James Brown, most any Motown, Jamaican Reggae, good punk like Bad Brains, Raw Power etc. The band should sound like one thing, not 5 guys.
As far as mid on a kick. NO! 4k on the foot as they say, the rest should be flat or cut.
When recording bass I often highpass around 60-120 hz depending, but this is because in the digital realm it is hard to get enough apparent level out of a full range bass guitar without eating up headroom. Live I would never highpass a bass. Would you lowpass a guitar?

[craig.p]

Also, when you adjust for your stage sound, don't forget you don't want to phase-fight the mains if you're going through them as well. You can adjust something for better sound on stage and, by doing that, totally crapify what the audience hears. Easy trap to fall into. How many shows have I been to where from the stage to ten feet away it sounded absolutely outstanding, but from ten feet away to the back of the room it was suckout city.

Lots of variables, may or may not apply depending on setup & venue & who's mic'd/DI'd and who's not, but I thought I should mention it.

Hope this doesn't qualify as a threadjack. Was not my intent.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Calaverasgrande

If the band is tight it shouldn't matter if the bass and kick drum are in a similar frequency range. The bass should lock on to the kick (maybe a hair of a micro second after the kick actually). If they sound like one unit together it is immense! To me this is a problem with a lot of modern music, recording esp. Each instrument is totally distinguishable from all the others, panned in its own space with its own reverb. Listen to some good James Brown, most any Motown, Jamaican Reggae, good punk like Bad Brains, Raw Power etc. The band should sound like one thing, not 5 guys.
As far as mid on a kick. NO! 4k on the foot as they say, the rest should be flat or cut.
When recording bass I often highpass around 60-120 hz depending, but this is because in the digital realm it is hard to get enough apparent level out of a full range bass guitar without eating up headroom. Live I would never highpass a bass. Would you lowpass a guitar?

certainly would, and so would most guitarists since they rarely if ever use tweeter frequencies.

[rpsands]

I always high pass my bass signal live, ~55-75hz. Cuts the stage mud and prevents I run it *after* my DI though, so FOH gets full range with no compression and so on.

[tommixx]

Originally Posted by craig.p

Also, when you adjust for your stage sound, don't forget you don't want to phase-fight the mains if you're going through them as well. You can adjust something for better sound on stage and, by doing that, totally crapify what the audience hears. Easy trap to fall into. How many shows have I been to where from the stage to ten feet away it sounded absolutely outstanding, but from ten feet away to the back of the room it was suckout city.

Lots of variables, may or may not apply depending on setup & venue & who's mic'd/DI'd and who's not, but I thought I should mention it.

Hope this doesn't qualify as a threadjack. Was not my intent.

I agree with you and I guess I should clarify that I am talking specifically about micing the drums for the Pa and DI (typically for me anyway) on the bass through the PA. I tend to EQ the ROOM FIRST to get to a neutral starting point. Only after I have addressed the misgivings or the attribute of the space do I get into doing anything to an instrument...Keep in mind that these frequencies are only meant as a guideline...I tend to cut the frequencies that I boost somewhere else in the mix...say off the keys or guitar or vocals or whatever it may be. I try to go by the rule that generally whatever I boost in one place I will cut in another and whatever I cut in one place I MAY need to add back in somewhere else. Of course there are MANY variables that come into play. This was the way Tom Dowd did it essentailly and I was fortunate enough to learn it from the guy that actually recorded all those James Brown records and a lot of the Stax and Motown stuff of which the other poster speaks...

Tom's first rule to me was...THERE ARE NO RULES! Just some general starting points that seem to work fairly well MOST of the time but certainly not all the time. As he used to say, if it sounds good, it is good...He loved old consoles and analog recording. He used to say all the time that all he needed was a really good microphone and a console with a great preamp, a pan knob, and a fader. He used EQ very sparingly for the most part but he would crank stuff that needed it. Usually it was something that somebody else recorded (incorrectly) that required him to crank any EQ....

Peace,

T

[johnk_10]

lately, i've been lovin' it when we have the system tuned so that our drummer's kick sounds like a kick drum with (my bass) notes. IMO, that's when we sound the punchiest (think tower of power).