Grammys Mumford & Sons... Sideways Ampeg 810

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Tunaman

SVTB15... that was awesome information man, really appreciate it! so cool

Mumford & Sons can go ahead & do it... hell you guys can go ahead & do it but as long as people know that the physics of lying an 810 sideways really sucks.

I saw that performance. I believe the bassist was using a Jazz Bass with what sounding like well broken in flatwound strings, which means very little 'energy' in the upper midrange area that would be impacted by a multi driver cab laying on its side.

Also, since that rig was, at the most, there for a slight bit of 'low end feel' as a personal monitor for the bassist, off axis response of the higher frequencies is again, a moot point, even if his bass was producing it.

Given that the backline had zero impact on what the audience hears, that to me is a 'three strikes and you are out' situation of believing that this particular usage of that backline cab is in ANY way not appropriate.

The fact that putting that cab sideways cleans up the stage look (especially for a band that is kind of going for the 'organic/acoustic' vibe), and it seems not only to be 'not a problem', but actually a very good decision.

Live in a bar with no front of house support, not so much.

[modulusman]

Originally Posted by Tunaman

SVTB15... that was awesome information man, really appreciate it! so cool

Mumford & Sons can go ahead & do it... hell you guys can go ahead & do it but as long as people know that the physics of lying an 810 sideways really sucks.

Again that info is here:

Speaker physics from Barefaced

From what I read in your link since your concerned about dispersion it would make more sense to lose the big cab completely and run directly to the PA.

[Mark Reccord]

I seriously doubt any producer/director-type person at the Grammys told M&S's bass player that he couldn't put his 810 upright. They're definitely big enough to call their own shots. I've been involved in the production of a bunch of televised awards shows up here (Junos, etc.) and I've never seen or even heard of the LD or any of the TV guys dictating artists backline setups.

Lots of guys use 810s on their sides. Jim Clench (RIP) from April Wine/BTO did it for most of his career. It worked for him. P-bass into an SVT set for maximum gank. I mixed monitors for them a slew of times and he always sounded great but he really didn't want the cab pointed at his head. I'm sure he didn't give a crap about the physics being "incorrect" and I'm damned sure it didn't inhibit his ability to rock.

I totally understand why from an acoustics point of view putting an 810 on its side isn't the best implementation but I certainly don't look down my nose at people who use them that way, which I'm seeing here. When it comes to getting your "sound" and getting into your comfort zone for playing live, do whatever works for you, physics be damned.

If that's a sideways 810 with 3 blown drivers and a shithauled SVT: Fine. If it's a state of the art, engineered to be as flat as possible, vertically aligned cabinet driven by a high end channel strip and pro level power amp: Also fine.

[petrus61]

I also saw George Porter Jr laying his SVT 8x10 on its side at an indoor show where the stage was 4 ft off the ground.

[Fuzzbass]

In a situation where your stage sound is the house sound, or comprises part of it, then sure, do whatever's necessary to avoid adverse tonal side effects: stack your cabs, stand your 8x10 vertically.

For the Grammys especially, stage sound is a non-factor -- completely irrelevant, in fact. You go direct-to-PA, with in-ear monitors. So, if I were Mumford dude or anyone else, and my trusted publicist said something like "Big amp rigs are out of style, they look too heavy metal. You should use small stage amps or horizontal stacks for better indie cred, show that your focus is on the music and not your gear (etc)", then that's exactly what I'd do.

[Fuzzbass]

Originally Posted by Mark Reccord

I totally understand why from an acoustics point of view putting an 810 on its side isn't the best implementation but I certainly don't look down my nose at people who use them that way, which I'm seeing here. When it comes to getting your "sound" and getting into your comfort zone for playing live, do whatever works for you, physics be damned.

If that's a sideways 810 with 3 blown drivers and a shithauled SVT: Fine. If it's a state of the art, engineered to be as flat as possible, vertically aligned cabinet driven by a high end channel strip and pro level power amp: Also fine.

This too! It's not like putting your 8x10 sideways will change your tone from awesome to suck.

The nuances we bass players (self included) obsess over are lost to 99% of listeners. In the grand scheme, your bass needs to thump in the right places, and leave adequate spaces.

Yes, I obsess, but that's because *I* like to be happy. The audience doesn't care if my roundwounds have gone dead.

[I-play-bass]

Trujillo from Metallica puts his 8x10s sideways and on top of each other.

[HolmeBass]

I saw Nathan East playing with Herbie Hancock (Vinnie Colaiuta on drums and some amazing African guitaris who's name I cannot remember) and he laid his two 410's side-by-side, with a 2x4 under the front edge to ever so slightly point them, just a bit, up towards his ears. They were behind and beside him, in his "7 o'clock", and slightly angled towards him (not pointing straight off-stage into the house). But basically in the same config as an 810 on its side.

I think everything was Aggie, certainly the DB750 (or maybe 751?) amp and IIRC GS 410s. It was a small enough hall that his stage sound definitely had an impact on the first 20 or so rows. The sound was very good, although come to think of it his bass was a bit less crisp/sharp than I might have expected it for this kind of show.

[steve_rolfeca]

SVTB15's experience sits most closely with my limited experience of live TV.

You can never over-estimate the "douchiness" of broadcast television production decisions, not because they're a bunch of cretins, but because they recognize something that we often forget- it's primarily a visual medium.

[Fuzzbass]

Originally Posted by I-play-bass

Trujillo from Metallica puts his 8x10s sideways and on top of each other.

With this arrangement, it doesn't matter if they're sideways or vertical: the end result is still a 4x4 array of tens.

Theory says that a vertically-stacked 2x8 array will sound better, but I wouldn't want to stand in front of it... too unstable...!

[tibpson]

Once upon a time, I saw Thievery Corporation at a festival (outdoors) 15k people there, and the bass player also used his 8x10 cabinnet on sideways. I don't know if in a place like this the sound that the crowd gets is influenced by the way the cabinnet is on stage, but as far as I remember it was some huge bass tone, I could feel the ground shaking each note he played.

[Mark Reccord]

Originally Posted by svtb15

We would soundcheck the day before.. On show day you get their early.. watch the show . do the hang.. the gear is back-lined and numerous acts gear is all staged in order to go back stage on a rotary lazy suasn thing... you dont even see your gear that you had the day before...since artists were usually gathered and quarantined in the green room half hour before. during commercial the set change and walk you out.. you might have 1 minute to prep and you get the countdown. it is the most fun you can ever have.....

On another thing, i did the Atlantic records 40th anniversary HBO show.. I sound checked the day before using Will Lees gk/ Hartke rig.. then the next day is the live HBO show.. lenny kravitz ex wife introduces us as we are coming out of commercial.. I get to my amp. the GK rig is not there.. but instead Foreigners Trace Elliot rig is there. I had maybe 30 seconds to tweak and go...5 4 3 2 1 go... and my wireless went out since Robert plants GIT player was on the same Freq as i was and he was up next... so i went hardwire.. talk about pit stops!

This sounds like a production screw up. I bet someone got blasted for that! But these things happen occasionally and the only way to deal with it is to do what you did: Quickly figure it out and do your performance! The show must go on as they say.

I've done systems teching (FOH and monitors), mixed FOH and monitors, taken care of the TV feeds and worked backline on a bunch of live to TV things over the years. I'm always super nervous before but settle in pretty quickly as things start. TV and/or live audiences wouldn't believe the stuff that happens behind the scenes at these things that could potentially bring the show to a stop. Luckily, with good crew and seasoned performers, that rarely happens.

[Fair Warning]

When I use 2 810's on stage, I stack them sideways. Primarily for looks. I even have rubber feet on the side of both of my cabs. The sound is enormous!

[johnson79]

If it's any consolation, I saw some other live photos of Mumford and his cab is vertical.
So we can all rest easy that the young bass players of America will not be led astray.

[DiabolusInMusic]

I am shocked...

that you didn't change the channel when mumford and sons came on.

[jbybj]

It has been my experience, especially in creative/artistic/technical endeavors, that using a device in a state of malfunction, or in a way that is outside it's intended design, can produce unintended results, that may be exactly what you prefer.

IOW, random frequency cancelation, comb filtering, phase shifting, can be FUN!

[modulusman]

Originally Posted by tibpson

Once upon a time, I saw Thievery Corporation at a festival (outdoors) 15k people there, and the bass player also used his 8x10 cabinnet on sideways. I don't know if in a place like this the sound that the crowd gets is influenced by the way the cabinnet is on stage, but as far as I remember it was some huge bass tone, I could feel the ground shaking each note he played.

You don't actually think the crowd was hearing his bass rig do you? For 15K people the Pa was doing all the work.

[Not yet]

Originally Posted by MKA

OMG they don't read TalkBass at Grammy's!!! Also, I'm pretty sure that I saw someone mixing speaker sizes there!!! And fEARfuls nowhere to be found!!!

Perfect

[Jools4001]

Someone better tell Nicky Wire from the Manic Street Preachers then...he compounds the felony by commiting it 4 times over, and lord knows that Welsh flag can't be acoustically transparent



Manics, Mumfords...must be the rebellious streak in us Brits

[Tunaman]

Originally Posted by KJung

Live in a bar with no front of house support, not so much.

As long as people know that... cool
If they dont care & still make the decision... cool
Having no education about the physics... uncool

Keep rocking people!