Guitarist doesn't know how to dial his volume knob back

[Honkycat]

Originally Posted by willsellout

I have this problem. I'm having trouble competing with one guitarist and I run a GB Streamliner 900 into a Neo 212 cabinet. He will be turning down at the next practice or i'll load my stuff and take off. Plenty of bands need bass players around here.

+1..That will do the trick

[will33]

Originally Posted by Honkycat

+1..That will do the trick

+1

His amp and 212 will carry the room fine in any smallish bar/club you would do that in, and cover the stage at anything bigger. I know, I use 200-300 watts and a pair of 12" deltalites all the time. If there is a "not being heard" issue, it's not due to a lack of bass rig, rather a lack of professionalism.

FWIW, the Genz Neo's are OEM's built on the deltalite platform/structure. Their OEM tweaks make it so they are a bit smoother and breakup very nicely. They sound good when you work them just a little too hard. That means he could probably get even a little bit more "musical sounding volume" out of his rig than I do mine.

If that's not enough, it ain't his fault.

[derrico1]

Originally Posted by tjclem

You never mentioned what the rest of the band thought about the situation... Or if you did I missed it.

I think the OP has Lownered, but I'm also still curious whether the guitar is too loud in relation to the vocals and drums, or whether just the bass is getting buried.

I've seen Line6 rigs that look like they ought to be loud that tuned out to be pretty tame.

[tevitag]

[quote=JamieIsOnline;13531490](last week at practice I rolled off all my volume so my amp wasn't making any noise and his was that loud no one even noticed - his amp was doing all my bass work for me and drowning me out)

I thought it was just me who did this!

Now if it gets too loud, I turn my volume down. If they want a bass player in the band, they can damn well accommodate me, otherwise I may as well be Marcel Marceau.

[Downunderwonder]

Originally Posted by derrico1

I think the OP has Lownered, but I'm also still curious whether the guitar is too loud in relation to the vocals and drums, or whether just the bass is getting buried.

I've seen Line6 rigs that look like they ought to be loud that tuned out to be pretty tame.

They were only just managing with the previous amp.

100W of 4x12 annihilates everything in the room, rendering drums into dull thumps and cymbals into tinny splashes, albeit loud as hell. Vocals? Bass tone? You gots to be kidding.

[derrico1]

No, not kidding. Notice that *before* he switched rigs, the guitarist was "only" playing through a "100 watt SS Marshall." The power of the guitarist's new Line6 head isn't specified in the OP. (The OP does claim that the guitarist ran that head "full blast" at the rehearsal, but IDK how literally to take that.)

I've heard guitarists struggle to get the volume they want with a Line6 head into a half-stack. Granted, some operator error is usually involved in their setting up the gain structure. Still, how you run a rig matters as much as what the rig is. (My car's speedometer goes up to 140 mph; that doesn't tell you much about how fast I was going on the way to work this morning.)

And while I prefer to rehearse w/ controlled volumes, as the OP writes, his band is aiming for loud. And he's written on a number of threads that he's found his bass combos marginal.

So, it seems a reasonable first question to ask: how loud is loud? If the guitarist is running his new rig so that it buries *everyone,* I'd suggest a different set of solutions than if the OP's combo is the only voice getting buried but drums and vocals are still holding their own.

[georgestrings]

Originally Posted by Caca de Kick

Guitar players aside...unless it was a blues band, I have never been able to use a 150w ss head and single 15" cab with any rock drummer I've played with (as well as some country drummers). So I definitely would have used this excuse to upgrade the old rig.

+1...


- georgestrings

[JamieIsOnline]

Originally Posted by derrico1

No, not kidding. Notice that *before* he switched rigs, the guitarist was "only" playing through a "100 watt SS Marshall." The power of the guitarist's new Line6 head isn't specified in the OP. (The OP does claim that the guitarist ran that head "full blast" at the rehearsal, but IDK how literally to take that.)

I've heard guitarists struggle to get the volume they want with a Line6 head into a half-stack. Granted, some operator error is usually involved in their setting up the gain structure. Still, how you run a rig matters as much as what the rig is. (My car's speedometer goes up to 140 mph; that doesn't tell you much about how fast I was going on the way to work this morning.)

And while I prefer to rehearse w/ controlled volumes, as the OP writes, his band is aiming for loud. And he's written on a number of threads that he's found his bass combos marginal.

So, it seems a reasonable first question to ask: how loud is loud? If the guitarist is running his new rig so that it buries *everyone,* I'd suggest a different set of solutions than if the OP's combo is the only voice getting buried but drums and vocals are still holding their own.

I'm loving some of the responses I've gotten so far you're all helpful

few things:

1. I agree Line 6's are a bag of shite I really think they are tone suckers
2. His amp is 150w Line 6 "Spyder 2" I think ? definately 150w
3. I've found an Ampeg SVT3 Pro for sale at £350 which is a steal
4. The drums can be heard, but he keeps looking towards the guitarist for cues even though me and the drummer are the rhythm section so really it should be me (I can only assume because he can't hear me)
5. The singer, well you can hear a sound, just not what it is if that makes sense, you can hear the vocals just not what the words are (it's hardly cutting through the mix)

[lastnotleast]

Sounds like an immature ass. It's always either the guitar player or drummer.
We had the same issue with both drummer and guitar player at rehearsal. Drummer switched to Hot Rod sticks.

The best thing to happen is for your band to start losing gigs because you are too loud.
Something or someone will be forced to make a change.

[derrico1]

Originally Posted by JamieIsOnline

4. The drums can be heard, but he keeps looking towards the guitarist for cues even though me and the drummer are the rhythm section so really it should be me (I can only assume because he can't hear me)
5. The singer, well you can hear a sound, just not what it is if that makes sense, you can hear the vocals just not what the words are (it's hardly cutting through the mix)

There we go. The guitar is too loud if it's burying the singer, and you should be able to make an ally of the singer in looking for a solution.

Two complications:

1. The drums might be too loud, too, which will complicate the politics of getting to a solution, especially if your drummer doesn't (yet) have the dynamic control to play with energy at lower volumes.

2. If your drummer's too loud and your guitarist's too loud, you could just join the fray with a bigger rehearsal bass rig, That's going to leave your singer screwed, though. And audiences generally pay most attention to the vocals. So if your guy develops the habit of pushing so hard that he has no dynamics or phrasing, and his voice is chronically shot, well there you are.

Under the circumstances, you might want a bigger rig for gigs, so that your drummer can hear you. (That SVT3 pro should do, run into enough speakers in an efficient cab or two.) If you and the singer can convince the guitarist and drummer to bring the volume down, great. If not, I'd suggest looking at using a headphone mixer for rehearsals—both to protect your hearing, and to allow everybody to hear what they need during rehearsals at whatever volume each individual prefers.

[Russell L]

I'm getting ready to have a talk about volume level with our jam group. Try having THREE guitars at once onstage, and each wants to be a star (well, except one guy is cool). Then, add harmonica. I could barely hear the drums! My ears are still ringing. They have to understand that I won't play like that again. Why, oh, why do so many folks wanna be so damn loud?

[will33]

If he's burying the vocals, can't understand lyrics, etc. the answer is to turn the other instruments down, not crank the vocals up.

The guy is just plain too loud. You could use a little more bass rig for gigging some places, but you've got plenty for a rehearsal room. It doesn't take much before things get too loud for a small room like that. Balance your volumes to the weakest link, which might be the vocal PA in your case.

[will33]

You guys also need to think about your singer. They should not have to push or strain all the time to hear themselves. Too much of that too often can actually cause scar tissue to form on your vocal chords and ruin them for life. Ask any professionally trained vocalist, or vocal coach, about proper care of the voice, what to do and not do, etc.

Your singer should be able to sing naturally, comfortably, use dynamics, work the mic, etc. and be easily heard from the PA. Whatever that volume level happens to be in your situation, you all need to balance with that.

[delta7fred]

Record the next rehearsal and make sure they all get a copy. If they bother to listen to it they will realise the problems. If he listens and doesn't hear anything wrong then he is a dick and you should move on. Take the singer with you if it is mutually beneficial.

I played guitar for 12 years and the only time I was loud was during a solo, you cannot be a lead guitarist and be a shrinking violet. The rest of the time I was at a volume suitable for rhythm guitar*. I never trod on the keys solos or the singer's lines.

*I made a volume pedal with 2 preset levels, one for rhythm, the other for lead. The rhythm volume was less than half the lead volume. The rest of the band loved it.

[Jack]

Good luck getting gigs that loud. If you're so loud you're stopping guys from buying girls drinks and driving people out of the club the landlord won't be asking you back. Does he want to jam with his bedroom rock god ideals or does he want to be in a gigging, working band?

Both of my guitarists have Marshall half stacks, a mode four and a DSL. The DSL is a great amp and very loud with 100W. The MF isn't so highly regarded but I like it well enough and it's 350W which is insane for a guitar amp. Funny, both have volume controls.

[will33]

Originally Posted by delta7fred

Record the next rehearsal and make sure they all get a copy. If they bother to listen to it they will realise the problems. If he listens and doesn't hear anything wrong then he is a dick and you should move on. Take the singer with you if it is mutually beneficial.

I played guitar for 12 years and the only time I was loud was during a solo, you cannot be a lead guitarist and be a shrinking violet. The rest of the time I was at a volume suitable for rhythm guitar*. I never trod on the keys solos or the singer's lines.

*I made a volume pedal with 2 preset levels, one for rhythm, the other for lead. The rhythm volume was less than half the lead volume. The rest of the band loved it.

This is what my guitarist uses ^^ a simple passive volume pedal with a block under the heel end set for rhythm and lead volume. Works great. Guy runs a jcm2000 and a 412 and is never too loud. I mic him in even the smallest of places and in fact, tell him to turn up sometimes. Perhaps I'm just spoiled but this volume war stuff is just so adolecent, I just plain refuse to deal with folks like that anymore.

[delta7fred]

Originally Posted by will33

This is what my guitarist uses ^^ ...

... Perhaps I'm just spoiled but this volume war stuff is just so adolecent, ...

This is THE difference between a guitarist and a guitard.

It always amuses me when TBers get their panties in a bunch over the use of "guitard", a description that unfortunately fits many skinny string players perfectly (there is also such a thing as a keytard but don't get me started on those).

[will33]

Originally Posted by delta7fred

This is THE difference between a guitarist and a guitard.

It always amuses me when TBers get their panties in a bunch over the use of "guitard", a description that unfortunately fits many skinny string players perfectly (there is also such a thing as a keytard but don't get me started on those).

Yup....if the shoe fits.....


To someone who didn't know, reading this forum they could come away thinking we all hate guitar players and just think every band should be a bass solo type project with some backing instruments or something. Couldn't be further from the truth in my case. I LOVE guitar. I like guitarists....guitards, not so much. I took lessons for 2 years on guitar as a kid, always keep some around and am a bit of a hack guitar player myself, though I don't keep my practice up enough to call myself a real guitar player. Should really do that. IMO, guitar is a lead instrument and the bass goes in the rhythm section, not the other way around. I like playing in bands and actually get bored with listening to solo bass material pretty quickly. I love messing with lap steels as well.

[lokikallas]

Originally Posted by R Baer

Get your guitarist to put his amp up on one of those tilt back amp stands. A common problem with the guitarist (among other things) is that they all use cabs that are very directional and put their cabs on the ground, so that most of the sound is blowing past their legs. This is why, at a club, you can stand straight in line with the guitar cab on stage and get your head blown off by the volume, but step a few feet to either side and it quiets down considerably. Tilting the cab up towards his ear level will direct the blast at his own head for a change. In almost every case where I have got the guitarist to use a tilt back stand, the band volume has come down by a huge amount.

+1
Tilt back or raise it up. I've played with guys that use full stacks but at reasonable volumes because they can hear themselves. With a (half stack even the ones with the top tilted speakers) the high frequencies are always out of wack too.
Always wear earplugs too. Don't EQ for the ear plugs though.

It's not a war.

[Revolver]

Ah yes, the eternal struggle with the loud guitarist . . .

It's good to have a plenty of power yourself, BUT! . . . when a loud guitarist is faced with a loud bass rig, it usually gets messy (they feel threatened by your rig! [How dare you compete with me!]). The volume war is taken to Olympic proportions and then the whole thing is a disaster (save for certain genres of music).

How to deal with loud obnoxious guitarist for dummies

Bass Player (and/or other band memeber(s): Hey, could you lower the volume? I can't hear much (or anything at all).
Guitarist: Hmmm? Ok . . . . (Guitarist procedes to move the volume 1/8 of an inch or to fake the move altogether)

Bass Player (and/or other band member(s): Hmm? Sorry man, it's still very loud. Could you just turn it down a notch?
Guitarist: Sorry! I can't go any lower, otherwise my tubes won't do their thing properly)

Bass Player (and/or other band member(s): Hmm? Why don't you get a Hot Plate (attenuator) or perhaps get a 15-30 Watt amp (15 - 20 is usually plenty).

Guitarist: No man! You don't get it! A hot plate just makes the amp sound different, and 15/20 Watts is just not enough power!

Bass Player (and/or other band member(s): Oh, ok. So you are not willing to turn down the volume in order for the whole band to sound its best?

Guitarist: You don't get it man! I just can't sacrifice tone like that.

Bass Player (and/or other band member(s):

Option 1: Oh, ok. We (the band) won't be needing your (ear-piercing) services anymore. Bye!

Option 2: See you dude! I won't be doing any more "Volume Olympics"

Bass Player: Either he (the lord of noise) goes, or you can find another Bass player