Guitarist ever say the bass isn't loud enough?

[tocs100]

So I just experimented with replacing a PA power amp (400watts per side) and 2 Carvin 15's (one a PA speaker just for the drummer really, the other a neo 600w in a "Sonic Mini" cab) that needed lots of limiting to keep from farting-out--and didn't have much "throw."

So after much searching and trading I get a Peavey 410TVX (heard another guy use and it was so loud and full) and a GK Backline 600 (300w). This combination to me is just as loud out-front but also has much more punch and throw, and it needed no limiting. I also stand 20ft from the cab to the middle of the dancefloor and all is well with the l-o-u-d drummer: I'm STOKED.

Then my guitarist/bandleader says he's really disappointed he couldn't hear the bass all night(!) Bear in mind that in this huge, dead room he can't hear his stack well enough 15 feet from it and uses two floor monitors... Is he just expecting too much from me in a really dead room with next to zero PA support and only a vocal monitor from the house?

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

(1) Why are you trying to play a huge dead room without PA? (2) And why are you so far away from your amps? (3) You can be that far from the backline if you have full monitoring, but otherwise 8 to 10 feet is the max.

(1) The club has a very cheap Kustom PA thru which the soundguy won't run more than a hint of d.i.'d bass.
Pay is okay but not enough to bring a 4th vehicle and a 2nd PA: no way.

(2) I play closer to my amp, but I walked 20ft away to hear how well the bass projected near the center of the room: sounded great!

(3) Yeah the guitarist can't help but be about 15 feet from my cab(s) because the drumset goes almost to the lip of the stage, and the ONE floor monitor, just for vocals, goes from the stage-lip to 5ft. out on the floor.

I've heard my new cab, Peavey 410TVX, can take [EDIT 475w] easy from a Peavey Firebass, so next time, maybe I'll run more than the 300w from my GK BL600. But from everywhere I stood I was near deafening--even drowning-out the drums! I'm kinda suspecting maybe there's some phase-cancellation happening with his Marshalll JCM800, or some stage-related phase anomaly?

[JimmyM]

i'd say he's just insanely loud and blasting himself out with himself and he's lucky to hear anything else.

[Marton]

I have done a lot of gigs without PA support with a 200 watts amps in a 210. Just lowers your overall volume. The crowd will be probably pleased, too.

[gary mitchell]

I just left a band where the guitarist had me playing so loud it was insane. It was because he was playing so stinking loud. I was using a Aguilar GS 210 and a Peavey Lowrider 18 and my SWR 700 head cranked. I hated that 18 but he loved it, the audience would say it was to loud sometimes. With out him knowing it, I sold the 18 and the 210 and latch on to a Schroeder 310212 and love it. He hated and said wasn't loud enough. It could handle a lot more wattage I told him it was just as loud but not as annoying. And the drummer loved it he was very happy. Ive never had PA support in my bands, I have at church. At church I use a SWR 350 PRO head and SWR 410 cab to a huge room, and its quiet on stage. We can talk to each other and its nice, makes things comfortable and easy. Don't get me wrong sometimes I like to get Loud.

[GRAHAM SG1]

One guitarist can be too much at times but two is crazy, my band has just got a 2nd guitarsit and the solos become a kind of duel, the volume goes up all the time as they try to outdo each other, there has to be discipline over who does what in a song otherwise the whole thing is spoilt .
As a trio my MB210 was plenty loud enough but as a 4 piece no way, seems like I got the 115 extension cab at the right time

[Oren Hudson]

Yes - just recently. I was at an audition in the basement of the drummer's house. When I unloaded and set up my '82 Peavey Mark IV head and 2-15 Black Widow cab, he told me that directly above us is the dining room with china and glasses in cabinets and they'd probably be vibrating all over, but don't worry about it. At the break, he went upstairs while the guitarist, lead singer and I chated. When he returned, he said that his wife upstairs was complaining, so I dropped the volume. I was previously playing where the compressor light would just flicker every now and then, so the band wasn't extremely loud. Started the next song and the guitarist stops and announces "I've got to hear him (me)." So I turned it back up and we went on. I guess the wife just had to chase the china. End of story - I decided against joining the band.

[MNAirHead]

Have everyone turn down.. it will improve the FOH sound

[Swicked]

I usually can't hear my guitarist over my amp.

[Blacksack]

Originally Posted by Marton

I have done a lot of gigs without PA support with a 200 watts amps in a 210. Just lowers your overall volume. The crowd will be probably pleased, too.

agreed if you went to see a big band like metallica or iron maiden etc you expect it to be loud and dont even get me started on motorhead gigs

dropping a few db's off at pub gigs and bar venues works wonders i find for a start its easyer to get a good sound and like he said the crowd isnt stood ain a room thats too loud

[jnewmark]

I usually have the horn players ask me to turn up, not the guitar player. I tell them to have the sound guy put me in their monitor, but they don't want me in their monitor, they want me to be louder. Of course, we all know horn players are from Venus.

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by tocs100

next to zero PA support and only a vocal monitor from the house?

That's your problem. Why are you trying to play a huge dead room without PA? And why are you so far away from your amps? You can be that far from the backline if you have full monitoring, but otherwise 8 to 10 feet is the max.

[tocs100]

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

(1) Why are you trying to play a huge dead room without PA? (2) And why are you so far away from your amps? (3) You can be that far from the backline if you have full monitoring, but otherwise 8 to 10 feet is the max.

(1) The club has a very cheap Kustom PA thru which the soundguy won't run more than a hint of d.i.'d bass.
Pay is okay but not enough to bring a 4th vehicle and a 2nd PA: no way.

(2) I play closer to my amp, but I walked 20ft away to hear how well the bass projected near the center of the room: sounded great!

(3) Yeah the guitarist can't help but be about 15ft from my cab(s) because the drumset goes almost to the lip of the stage, and the ONE floor monitor, just for vocals, goes from the stage-lip to 5ft. out on the floor.

I've heard my new cab, Peavey 410TVX, can take 700w easy from a Peavey Firebass, so next time, maybe I'll run more than the 300w from my GK BL600. But from everywhere I stood I was near deafening--even drowning-out the drums! I'm kinda suspecting maybe there's some phase-cancellation happening with his Marshalll JCM800, or some stage-related phase anomaly?

[Nighttrain1127]

The Firebass 700 Head is only 700 watts @ 2 ohms, 475 watts @4 Ohms, and 275 watts@8 ohms So if your cab is 8 ohms you would need 4 of them to get a 2 ohm load and the 700 watts and if it is 4 ohms then you would need 2 of them to get the 700 watts.

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by tocs100

(1) The club has a very cheap Kustom PA thru which the soundguy won't run more than a hint of d.i.'d bass.
Pay is okay but not enough to bring a 4th vehicle and a 2nd PA: no way.

(2) I play closer to my amp, but I walked 20ft away to hear how well the bass projected near the center of the room: sounded great!

(3) Yeah the guitarist can't help but be about 15ft from my cab(s) because the drumset goes almost to the lip of the stage, and the ONE floor monitor, just for vocals, goes from the stage-lip to 5ft. out on the floor.

I understood you to mean that the guitarist stood 15 feet out from his rig, not yours. For him to hear you he has to hear your mids. Mids being directional that means either you have a two cab setup, with the bottom cab aimed at him and the top cab aimed at you, or you have your bass in the monitors, hi-passed to keep the lows out of the mix.
As for the PA, if the club doesn't care enough about how the sound is to provide good PA, and you don't care enough about how you sound to bring good PA, then your sound will suck. Fix it or live with it.

[Bassmickeyd]

No that's the sax player, who has to stand too near the guitar players, job.

[will33]

Along with too much volume, directional mids and some room cancellations likely have something to do with it. May not be much you can do about this without flipping a lot of gear, you certainly can't expand the room or move the stage.

If you want to hear yourself, point your amp at yourself. If you want your guitar player to hear you, point your amp at him and tell him to turn down. If you want a decent mix out in the audience, have everybody point their amps at the middle of the room, have a trusted pair of ears out there tell you who needs to turn up or down and deal with whatever that gets you onstage.

[Johnny Crab]

Originally Posted by will33

If you want to hear yourself, point your amp at yourself. If you want your guitar player to hear you, point your amp at him and tell him to turn down. If you want a decent mix out in the audience, have everybody point their amps at the middle of the room, have a trusted pair of ears out there tell you who needs to turn up or down and deal with whatever that gets you onstage.

THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^.

Yes, I've been told to turn up but mainly when running through BOSE PAS. The "bass" cabinets are loud at close range but have to be severely leaned on for any more.

[will33]

Should add that you mix it to the weakest instrument whether that's an unmiked drumkit or the vocals through a weak PA or whatever. Having people drowning out other people just hurts the overall sound.

[CDweller]

I get told that on occasion. If the guitars get too loud, or the guitars tone sucks or is offensive, I turn down. Not interested in adding to a crap sound with more volume.

[Winnb]

Your guitar player is too loud.