Help - chasing tone, need your input

beardedclam · #1 12-05-2010, 03:27 PM

I am enlisting your help - all you tone chasers and experts... I have hit a wall, and I have literally owned a half a dozen amps in the past two years - I am looking for that certain sound. I have an Ampeg 810 (Chinese Eminence drivers), I had a GK 1001 - sounded ok, then I bought an Aguilar AG500SC, this sounded pretty good - really punchy but it had a bit of a dead tone, then gigged with it and now I hate it - it does not cut through.

The Aguilar sort of sounds like the GK with the tone turned down to 70%. One think I can say about the Aggie - the bottom end is stellar, tight and powerful, it just lacks definition (sounds ok in my kitchen but just losses it in a band setting).

My favorite tone in a barky bridge sound (think "You oughta know" – Alanis Morissette, with strong bass); I play an American Standard Jazz Bass.

Maybe it is the cab??? The 810 isn't the best for upper end clarity but, oh my god it is so punchy - I friggen love that.

So now I am think I should go back to the basics, maybe I am convoluted in what I think I know about tone. How would you go about getting a "You oughta know" – Alanis Morissette tone??, where would you start? How would you get a Flea tone?, a Jimiroquai tone?

I know these are basic questions but I am loosing it - I can't seem to get a good t0ne anymore, I need your help.

faulknersj · #2 12-05-2010, 03:37 PM

How are you EQ your amp? Is your J Bass passive or active? If active, how are you setting your on board EQ? If passive, where is your tone knob set? Are you using a pick or fingers? If fingers, are you playing by the bridge pup or neck pup? How are you blending you bridge and neck pups? Could you describe your overall technique? Lots of questions, but this will help us help you! Cheers.

faulknersj · #3 12-05-2010, 03:54 PM

Fwiw, 'lacks definition' almost always means that you need to boost mids...or cut treble and bass...which accomplishes the same thing as a mid boost. Mids = Cut Thru. Start flat (flat = all frequencies should be in 'balance' with one another) and add subtle EQ to taste. I typically boost a touch of lows, balanced by the same boost of high mids. I could also slightly cut low mids and highs and accomplish the same tone shaping outcome.

Makatak · #4 12-05-2010, 04:02 PM

1 : How regularly do you change your strings ? IMO they are at least 40% of your sound .
2 : I use an Aphex Bass Xciter pedal [ similar to a BBE , Sansamp or NE-1 ] , that magic wee box gave my rig a " night and day " improvement ..... wont leave home without it now .
3 : Do any of the cabs you mentioned have HF Horns ??? , again IMO the introduction of horns in Bass cabinets was as significant in the evolution of Bass cabinets as NASA putting a man on the moon !

Sartori · #5 12-05-2010, 04:05 PM

I agree with faulknersj.

Before spending a big load of money on some other amp or whatever, first maybe re-examine your EQing. Remember, it doesn't matter how it sounds by itself if it sounds good in the mix.

faulknersj · #6 12-05-2010, 04:11 PM

Another observation, Flea played on that record and 99% sure that at that time he either used a Musicman Stingray, or a Modulaus Flea Bass. You might want to go play these basses if that is the sound you want. A J bass isn't going to sound like a Ray, or a Sterling, or Modulus Flea Bass. My guess is you need a new bass.

RickenBoogie · #7 12-05-2010, 04:13 PM

+1 to the above posts. EQ could very well be the issue here. If you're boosting everything BUT the mids, try reversing that, Boost the middle, leave the top and bottom flat(ish). If that doesn't help, new strings was another good suggestion.

faulknersj · #8 12-05-2010, 04:29 PM

One last general suggestion...when a thread is newly created, and one is seeking advice, it is to the OP's benefit to actively engage in the discussion that follows, especially when more info is needed.

beardedclam · #9 12-05-2010, 04:54 PM

These are all very good questions and I appreciated you help, please see my responses below:
•For the most part I set my EQ flat, the reason for this is because I find the EQ on the Aguilar very ineffective compared to my Eden (should have never sold that).
•I use a MIA 5 string passive Jazz Bass, I use two main setting: both pu’s at 100% with the tone all the way up, the second setting I use is the neck at 70% and bridge at 100% - tone at 90%.
-I use my fingers and I play closer to the bridge (between bridge pu & the bridge itself).
-My style is pretty aggressive – I did in pretty hard.
-My strings are a week old (Fender 8250’s nickel plated).
-I have tried a sans amp bass driver at a local music store – it seemed to favor the scooped sound (could be my imagination).
-I do not like the scooped tone, I rarely slap, and I really like the bridge burpy tone with a bit of added bottom end. I used to able to get this tone when I had my Eden CX-112, in fact it nailed this tone but it just lacked power and I needed more so I started buying amps (GK and Aguilar so far), I am not even sure if the Ampeg 810 is for me
-I play classic rock, a bit of fusion, I play a lot of staccato style (think Francis Rocco Prestia)
-I had a Stingray and did not like the brittle high-end.
-Maybe I have the wrong gear – maybe I should go back to Eden??
-Sorry for the delayed response

Here are a few links to the tone I want:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6x--c9SZak

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znPgJ...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dvx1exQBjOI

faulknersj · #10 12-05-2010, 05:56 PM

The you tube vids were a huge help and confirmed more precisely what you are after. In all of those clips, the bridge pup is definetely favored. In fact, notice the 70's spacing on the bridge pup in the Rocco Prestia Vid. That bridge pup might be even closer to the bridge than the bridge pups on 70's jazz basses. 70's spacing is another key to that tone. The mids are incredibly prevelent as well and often the right mid boost can simulate the bridge pup sound. I would recommend a bit of a high mid boost, low boost and possibly a slight high end cut. My tone is actually virtually identical to the tones in the vid links you posted, and I can coax that tone out of my passive and active J Basses and my Musicman Sterlings. I could not possibly praise the Genz Benz Shuttlemax 6.0 enough. It offers 2 channels, a tube chanel and a FET channel which allows you to shape and select between 2 different EQ setting on the fly via the footswitch. It is just an incredibly articulate head and the DI out is phenomenal. When I play a jazz thru this head I can nail that tone by slightly favoring the bridge pup, leaving low mids and high's flat on the head, and boosting lows and high mids to about 2 o clock. Like you, I have owned a rediculous number of heads, but my search ended after my first gig thru a GB Shuttlemax. I run mine into a Genz Benz Neo X 212T and get everything I need out of it. It is easily loud enough for even large outdoor venues. That said, the players in the video's are truly top notch players, and a lot of their sound comes from their technique and ability....particularly right hand technique and the ability to rotate the index and middle finger on almost every stroke. They also play with finesse and do not 'dig in'. This is half the battle. I hope this helps and feel free to hit me up if i can offer any more assistance. Best wishes!

beardedclam · #11 12-05-2010, 06:12 PM

Thanks-this is very helpful. I am familiar with ’70 spacing bridge pick-up, I always liked the idea (interesting to note Jaco has a great bridge pick-up sound but it is regular spaced). When you say boost the high mids – you mean 800 – 1,000 hz? I once played a TC electronics 2x10 combo that was stellar sounding – this mid sleep of the speakers – how do I get the sound with and Ampeg 810 – is it possible or do I need to sell my cab? Do you think the Genz Benz 6.0 Shuttle would get that tone with the 810 cab?

faulknersj · #12 12-05-2010, 06:26 PM

As far as high mids, I believe your Aggie just has a 'high mids' knob? I would try boosting that a bit. The high mid knob on my GB head sweeps from 300hz - 5Khz, and I leave it centered (12 o'clock) and boost there. What kind of venues do you play? What kind of rig does your guitar player use and how loud is his stage volume? This will help to evaluate your choice of cab. Without an actual test, it is tough to say, but I beleive I could dial that sound thru your 8x10 cab with your J Bass.

beardedclam · #13 12-05-2010, 06:32 PM

Yes - there is a high mid knob, it is 800 hz, it just does not offer a lot of tonal differences (the GK I had offered a lot more tonal variation with the high mid knob). My guitar player uses a Mesa Lonestar combo (2x12" - I think). I do not neet the massive volume of the 810, I just love the punchiness it provides (plus it looks cool), have said theat it is a real mf to move. Our stage volume is totally dependant on the drummer and it tends to get high at times. I was using a 300 watt Eden combo and it was way under powered, I had to run through the mains to keep up.

livinglow · #14 12-05-2010, 06:39 PM

Sell the AG500 and buy a DB750, problem solved. That's what I did

Jim C · #15 12-05-2010, 06:46 PM

Can you borrow a Stingray to try with your existing rig?

faulknersj · #16 12-05-2010, 06:48 PM

That said, I might recommend a 4x10 with horn, a 2x12 with horn, or 1x15 + 1 2x10 with Horn. It really depends on your personal taste, but for the funk fingerstyle tone you favor, I rarely see cats with that sound playing thru Ampeg 8x10's. That is a bummer that the Aggie's EQ section is so timid...is there a bass shop, or guitar center, or somewhere near your home where you can try out a ton of gear? I would take my bass into a shop and try a bunch of different stuff! I used to bring all my stuff into a shop, head, cab + bass and try different combinations until I found something that worked. That is the best way to go...make a day of it!

AwkwardLoudness · #17 12-05-2010, 06:50 PM

Just buy a Reeves Custom 225 and a pair of Orange OBC115 cabs or a Bergantino NV610 cab. If you're still chasing tone or volume after that then let us know.

beardedclam · #18 12-05-2010, 07:33 PM

In refference to "Sell the AG500 and buy a DB750, problem solved. That's what I did". Why are these AG500's so revered? They have nice tight bottem end but the rest of it is kinda crappy. What's a DB750 like tone-wise? Do you think theAG500 is scooped sounding or is it missing all the mids and highs?

beardedclam · #19 12-05-2010, 07:36 PM

I don't know if a Stingray is the answer - however now that you mention it, it may be a good idea. I used to own one and thought the highs were to brittle (that was will a 1x12/tweeter combo), it might actually sound smooth with a 810 (no tweeter)

beardedclam · #20 12-05-2010, 07:39 PM

There is a used Edn 6x10 for sale - that might work? My experiance is Eden cabs work well with eden heads, maybe I should sell my 810 and go with an Eden 6x10 and a WT800 - honestly hat will probably be a good combination - what do you think. One of my biggest problems is that I am cheap (yes I admit it) and as such I do not (unless I absolutly have to) buy new gear, so it is Craigs List and e-bay for me (not so much of the e-bay - to much crap)