Help with a custom build.

[creis2]

Don from LDS and I are going through some options for a custom build.

What I'm looking for: Nice loud, efficient and flexible (in terms of me always changing tone/heads/basses/pedals,etc). Most importantly, I'm considering this as an investment, so it's hopefully the last big cab I buy for a while. Play tube heads or warm solid states (Ashdown ABM's, Genz Streamliners). Vintage P basses with flatwounds, with a nice mid thump.

Option 1: Ported 610 at 5.3 ohms with 6 Beta 10a's. http://www.usspeaker.com/BETA10A-1.htm

I have a 410 with these and I like it a lot. But will a 5.3 ohm 610 be able to handle most gigs, even big outdoor ones?


Option 2: Sealed 810 with 8 of these: http://www.usspeaker.com/faital%20pro%2010fe200-1.htm

They look like a good lightweight speaker. Also the 810 will be made with 1/2" ply, making it under 100lbs. Sounds awesome.

For those who have experience playing around with cab builds, maybe can point me in the right direction?

[Mr. Foxen]

If you want flexible, the only sensible way is super transparent cab, and make your flexing at the preamp stage, so the cab has the least to do with it.

[creis2]

Originally Posted by Mr. Foxen

If you want flexible, the only sensible way is super transparent cab, and make your flexing at the preamp stage, so the cab has the least to do with it.

I mean flexible is important, but within reason. I have a pretty set vintage tone, with tweaks here and there. More often, I'm buying and selling my heads.

The betas seem like a strong speaker, and I've used them before. The Orange OBC 410 has them, and that gets a lot of good reviews.

But if I ever (hoping maybe) get on larger stages, I want this investment to be there with me. I don't see too many 610's often on big stages, so I dunno.

[AstroSonic]

The Faital 10's (with a Qts of 0.7) will need a fairly big chamber in order to avoid 'pillowy' bass, but that can be done. It has smooth and extended response with good dispersion.

The Beta has a little more 'character' in the high end, but that may be desirable.

Both are nice options.

Seems like maybe you have focussed in on 10's, but a 2x15 with Faital 15PR400's might also be worth considering. For the tone goal you have described, the Faital 15's would not need a tweeter. But hey, the 10's are great.

Great project. Good luck!

[rpsands]

I'd go with either a 2x15 with 15PR400s or a 4x12 with 12PR300s if I wanted a crazy loud cab that didn't have a midrange driver.

Big stack of neo 10s is just way too expensive.

[creis2]

Thanks for the help everyone.

I really dig my 410 with betas, so I'm almost afraid of trying something new. The thing I like about the Betas is that they sound good, and they aren't too expensive, plus they are available through most websites. If one blows or fails, a replacement would be cake.

Regarding the efficiency and the specs, what kind of volume and power handling could I expect with a 610 with betas? At 5.3 ohms?

I know a 810 will push more air, but the betas are 97dB at 1w/1m. Isn't that pretty high for a 10? 6 of them should be loud, right?

I play loud, but not to the point where it's stupid. I also don't play with too many lows, I'm pretty mid heavy.

Thanks again!

[creis2]

Originally Posted by AstroSonic

The Faital 10's (with a Qts of 0.7) will need a fairly big chamber in order to avoid 'pillowy' bass, but that can be done. It has smooth and extended response with good dispersion.

The Beta has a little more 'character' in the high end, but that may be desirable.

Both are nice options.

Seems like maybe you have focussed in on 10's, but a 2x15 with Faital 15PR400's might also be worth considering. For the tone goal you have described, the Faital 15's would not need a tweeter. But hey, the 10's are great.

Great project. Good luck!

What do you mean by "pillowy"?

[rpsands]

He means upper bass bump from being stuffed in a small enclosure.

Faitals are available from US Speaker and Speakerhardware, so I wouldn't hesitate to use them.

[creis2]

Originally Posted by rpsands

He means upper bass bump from being stuffed in a small enclosure.

Faitals are available from US Speaker and Speakerhardware, so I wouldn't hesitate to use them.

What Don and I were trying to do is to make a Berg 610/ Ampeg Flatback type of cab.

Do you think I run into issues with outerdimensions like:

H- 46"
W-24.5"
D-16"

Using 1/2 ply, it should somewhat easy to estimate inner dimensions. I just don't know how this works, and I like to hear opinions.

Again, thanks.

[rpsands]

You'll get closer at a lot less driver cost with a pair of 15PR400s tuned low, in my opinion.

I imagine someone else will be around to run the winisd numbers for you, but I haven't entered the 10FE drivers in because I don't think they are suitable for bass (Fs too high).

[AstroSonic]

Originally Posted by creis2

What do you mean by "pillowy"?

and from rpsands: "He means upper bass bump from being stuffed in a small enclosure."

As the magnitude of the hump increases, the ability of the bass driver(s) to follow the amplifiers signal is compromised (transient response). Also, the tonic (or harmonic) in the range of the hump is reproduced at a much higher level relative to the harmonics. Pillowy refers to the resulting softening of note definition. A little goes a long way. A good cab designer knows how to use this. With a Qts of 0.7 a relatively large cab volume will be required. The hump can be reduced with parametric EQ, but the transient imprecision will still be there.

Of the 2 options, the 6x10 with the Beta's should meet your spl and tone goals nicely.

[iualum]

Originally Posted by rpsands

I'd go with either a 2x15 with 15PR400s or a 4x12 with 12PR300s if I wanted a crazy loud cab that didn't have a midrange driver.

Big stack of neo 10s is just way too expensive.

Absolutely, although I'd include Eminence Kappa Lite 3015s as another fantastic 215 option.

[CL400Peavey]

Originally Posted by rpsands

I'd go with either a 2x15 with 15PR400s or a 4x12 with 12PR300s if I wanted a crazy loud cab that didn't have a midrange driver.

Big stack of neo 10s is just way too expensive.

+1

Seriously the Faital 15PF400 in the right box is made for "Vintage P" sound.

Originally Posted by iualum

Absolutely, although I'd include Eminence Kappa Lite 3015s as another fantastic 215 option.

Another good choice, if the more aggressive mids works for him. Both the 3015 and the 15PF400 can be eq'ed pretty close to each other.

[creis2]

Originally Posted by AstroSonic

and from rpsands: "He means upper bass bump from being stuffed in a small enclosure."

As the magnitude of the hump increases, the ability of the bass driver(s) to follow the amplifiers signal is compromised (transient response). Also, the tonic (or harmonic) in the range of the hump is reproduced at a much higher level relative to the harmonics. Pillowy refers to the resulting softening of note definition. A little goes a long way. A good cab designer knows how to use this. With a Qts of 0.7 a relatively large cab volume will be required. The hump can be reduced with parametric EQ, but the transient imprecision will still be there.

Of the 2 options, the 6x10 with the Beta's should meet your spl and tone goals nicely.

I like the tone of the beta's, so if 6 of them can give me a SPL loud enough for all my gigs, I might go that route.

[iualum]

Originally Posted by creis2

I like the tone of the beta's, so if 6 of them can give me a SPL loud enough for all my gigs, I might go that route.

SPL seems pretty good, should be ~104.5, I think. Displacement (Vd) maybe a touch on the light side, ~621mm. If you like the Betas, though, then that's the route for you.

The only item that I might question is, if you really prefer a larger cab (I sure do ), will this be the last big box you buy for a while? Maybe. Maybe not. Guess it's how you define "a while." Will you be jonesing for a monster/near-monster cab sooner rather than later?

[Mike Arnopol]

I know it's a lot more dough, but have you considered the 10pr310? More dough but you'll get nearly 50% more air moved than the Eminence.

The other Faital should work nicely in a sealed box.

[AstroSonic]

Originally Posted by creis2

I like the tone of the beta's, so if 6 of them can give me a SPL loud enough for all my gigs, I might go that route.

The 6x10 will only provide you with a few db more spl than your Beta loaded 4x10. However, one quite significant advantage is that the top pair of 10's will be closer to ear level. You will be able to hear your playing a lot better.

The dimensions (for the 6x10) you posted will provide around 1.6cf per driver (after cab walls, bracing, handles, drivers and ports are subtracted out), which is enough for a decent bottom response from the Beta's if tuned in the low 40's. The cab will be excursion limited to around 300w. however, Xmech is almost 3 times Xmax, so these drivers will take a fair amount more low and mid-bass power. Operation beyond Xmax will add harmonics that will be perceived as deep bass.

The thermal limit is just the sum of that for the 6 drivers (6x250 or 1.5kw).

If you found the 4x10 to be pretty close spl-wise to meeting your gig needs then the 6x10 should work out fine. A high pass filter would be very beneficial. No sense in wasting amplifier power and cone excursion on frequencies below Fb, where the driver is 'unloaded'.

A pair of Faital 15PR400's will have about the same cone area as five 10-inch drivers, but the 15's have almost twice the Xmax of the Beta 10's, so they can move more air. The six Beta10's will cost about $450 to $500 delivered, while the Faital 15's will cost... about the same. The one potentially major advantage of the Faitals is in the smaller cabinet required for the same low bass extension as the Beta10 6x10. About 6cf gross cab volume vs 10cf for the 6x10. That translates to easier loading and much lower weight. Driver weight alone is 16lbs for a pair of the Faitals vs 41lbs for 6 Beta10's. With modern, low weight construction the 6x10 is still likely to be around 70+lbs.

OTOH, the Faital 15's and Beta10's do not sound the same. The best tone is the one you like the most. Nobody can tell you which of these options will sound the best to you. If you really like the sound of the Beta10's, have the required vehicle space and a strong back, the 6x10 may be the one to get. Many find that 6x10's (and 8x10's) equipped with rear wheels and a handle bar are relatively easier to move than typical 4x10's.

It's nice to have options, but difficult to decide! Talk with Don some more. He has built a lot of cabs with many different drivers.

Good luck!

[creis2]

Originally Posted by iualum

SPL seems pretty good, should be ~104.5, I think. Displacement (Vd) maybe a touch on the light side, ~621mm. If you like the Betas, though, then that's the route for you.

The only item that I might question is, if you really prefer a larger cab (I sure do ), will this be the last big box you buy for a while? Maybe. Maybe not. Guess it's how you define "a while." Will you be jonesing for a monster/near-monster cab sooner rather than later?

I was hoping for this to be the last cab for quite some time. While I don't need one, this is why I was considering the 810. Will a 810 be that much louder than the 610?

[creis2]

Originally Posted by Mike Arnopol

I know it's a lot more dough, but have you considered the 10pr310? More dough but you'll get nearly 50% more air moved than the Eminence.

The other Faital should work nicely in a sealed box.

My original intention was to have a big sealed cab. I had a NV610, but it wasn't doing it for me cosmetically, I like 810's. Superficial........yes, but that's the way I am and I have to live with it.

Basically asked don to make me a modern day ampeg flatback, that doesn't weight as much and has good power handling. We were discussing some neo options at first, but he recommended the FAITAL PRO 10FE200's. They don't weight much more than the neo's and he spoke to his (vendor or the manufacturer, I forget who) and said they are a good fit.

While I trust him, I second guess everything and wanted to hear some advice.

I really want a sealed 810 that is somewhat manageable. He said he can get my 810 to weight about 100lbs.

I like tall cabs, if they're at or under 100lbs, they're easy for me to move. I'm very tall. I kind of want this to be the last big cab purchase I made for quite some time.


I'm in between the Beta 610 ported and the Faital 10FE200 sealed 810. Which should give me the most thunder mids?

[will33]

If you like what the Beta's are doing for you....use Beta's.

Ever consider just making a 16ohm 210 to stack with your current 410...or does that not pass "superficial" muster?