Help with a custom build.

[creis2]

Originally Posted by will33

If you like what the Beta's are doing for you....use Beta's.

Ever consider just making a 16ohm 210 to stack with your current 410...or does that not pass "superficial" muster?

That's what I originally planned on doing. I ran across two threads where the OP wanted to do a 8 ohm 410 and a 16 ohm 210, but the threads got flooded with people saying how lame that is and to buy a NV610, when the OP didn't ask about that specific cab. So I avoided mentioning it .

The 410+210 might work well, but I'm willing to spend the extra on the 810 if it pushes that much more air.

Would that work well as a big gig rig and compete with the heavy hitters?

[astack]

Regarding the big box requirement of the 10FE's, I think this was recently brought up in another thread and made me re-run the numbers. IIRC, maybe there are newer specs or maybe the 16 ohm version isn't as bad. Hmm. And using some heavy-duty lining/stuffing on the inside can help you cheat on volume, FYI. But for a 6x10, the size of a 8x10 type thing, maybe could work.

I think, sound-wise, Faital speakers tend to run flatter than Eminence stuff, too.

Sorry, I'm just rambling after some loooooong work days. I'll be interested to see what you go with.

[AstroSonic]

Two Options:

1) Consider using the Beta 10's in an 8x10. They will actually work ok in a sealed enclosure. You get a little less output in the lower mid-bass (than in a vented box), but more output in the low bass that is well controlled. This can happen because the rate of decline in response for a vented cab is twice as fast as for a sealed cab (24db/oct. vs 12db/oct.).

2) Have Don run the numbers on the required volume for the Faital 10's with peaking not to exceed 2 - 2 1/2 db. Since handling big cabs doesn't bother you, this could be a reasonable option. Again, the relatively slow rate of response decline below the sealed box system resonance can result in surprisingly deep, useful bass.

An 8x10 (with Beta 10's or drivers with similar sensitivity-like the Faitals) WILL be significantly louder than you 4x10 loaded with Beta 10's.

[iualum]

Originally Posted by creis2

I was hoping for this to be the last cab for quite some time. While I don't need one, this is why I was considering the 810. Will a 810 be that much louder than the 610?

Yes, a 10FE200 810 will be noticeably louder than a Beta-10 610.

10FE200 810: ~1200mm Vd (Displacement/Air Movement) potential, ~105dB SPL, 1200 watts RMS, $480 for the drivers

Beta-10 610: ~621mm Vd potential, ~104.5dB SPL, 1500 watts RMS, $450 for the drivers

Again, you say you like Betas. As mentioned above, maybe an 810 Beta-10? $600 for the speakers isn't THAT much more to pay in the whole scheme of things.

For me, though, if I had to pick between the 610/810 you've listed, I'd do the Faital 810 (even though I've never heard them). Telling Vd advantage over the 610, even more than a Beta 810 which would come in at about 826mm Vd.

[pie_man_25]

it might be a good idea to consider the betas in an 810 like iualum has noted, it wouldn't be that much more, and it would improve SPL noticeable over better VD and much better sensitivity over the 410 that you currently have - not to mention the lower impedance would likely help coax some more power from your amp which would help with volume as well. If you make it similarly enough to the beta 410 that you love, it'll sound exactly like it, except louder.

It would still only be about 2/3 the vd of the 10FE200s though, at 120 bucks extra, but it's worth considering if you like the tone more. I'm not too knowledgable about vd, I'd rather look at it from the standpoint of maximum db SPL. Either way, I'm sure you'd be fine with either cabinet with a head that can do 300 watts at 4 ohms - I've used 2 ported 410s with speakers similar to the beta 10a, and I had no trouble at all with cutting through the mix with my 250 watt/4ohms head, the sound was good too.

Another thing to consider, might be considering getting some plans and making a BFM jack 410 build with the beta 10s- it'd be just as big, probably just as loud where it counts, and the plans wouldn't need much modification - the 210 plan is basically just two 110s stacked on top of each other so a 410 would basically be two 210s stacked on top of each other. Not to mention, it would be lighter, and potentially cost less due to less speakers being needed.

[creis2]

My big question is..............Why to do Faitals weigh so little? 4.95 pounds per driver is very light for a non-neo driver.?

[creis2]

Any advice is helpful.

[iualum]

Originally Posted by pie_man_25

it might be a good idea to consider the betas in an 810 like iualum has noted, it wouldn't be that much more, and it would improve SPL noticeable over better VD and much better sensitivity over the 410 that you currently have - not to mention the lower impedance would likely help coax some more power from your amp which would help with volume as well. If you make it similarly enough to the beta 410 that you love, it'll sound exactly like it, except louder.

It would still only be about 2/3 the vd of the 10FE200s though, at 120 bucks extra, but it's worth considering if you like the tone more. I'm not too knowledgable about vd, I'd rather look at it from the standpoint of maximum db SPL. Either way, I'm sure you'd be fine with either cabinet with a head that can do 300 watts at 4 ohms - I've used 2 ported 410s with speakers similar to the beta 10a, and I had no trouble at all with cutting through the mix with my 250 watt/4ohms head, the sound was good too.

Another thing to consider, might be considering getting some plans and making a BFM jack 410 build with the beta 10s- it'd be just as big, probably just as loud where it counts, and the plans wouldn't need much modification - the 210 plan is basically just two 110s stacked on top of each other so a 410 would basically be two 210s stacked on top of each other. Not to mention, it would be lighter, and potentially cost less due to less speakers being needed.

Potential loudness is a combination of both. All else being equal, two boxes of equal Vd (air displacement), but one with greater SPL, the one with greater SPL can go louder. Two boxes of equal SPL, but one with greater Vd, the one with greater Vd can go louder.

Must be some sort of general (maybe specific?) "trade off" calculation/formula, but I don't know what it is. Someone else must, but I've never run across it. My meaning regards, say, two 212s (no HF driver, 12s only). 1st cab has 2 dB (or whatever) greater SPL. 2nd cab has 25% (or, again, whatever) greater Vd. Which is potentially louder?

[pie_man_25]

okay, I think I'm getting you now, that they're both related to total "loudness" or "balls" as some may put it, but that the actual relation is more nuanced than I thought it was.

I'd actually be curious to see an 810 - sealed OR ported- made with those faitals. The box would be massive, because of the high Qts, but with 5mm xmax you'd get a relatively good deal of power handling and low-end in an 810. It might outperform most commercial 810s too in terms of low-end and low-mid reinforcement. I think the size of the box would be the difficulty in this situation, ported or sealed if it's too small it'd be boomy.

[iualum]

Originally Posted by pie_man_25

okay, I think I'm getting you now, that they're both related to total "loudness" or "balls" as some may put it, but that the actual relation is more nuanced than I thought it was.

I'd actually be curious to see an 810 - sealed OR ported- made with those faitals. The box would be massive, because of the high Qts, but with 5mm xmax you'd get a relatively good deal of power handling and low-end in an 810. It might outperform most commercial 810s too in terms of low-end and low-mid reinforcement. I think the size of the box would be the difficulty in this situation, ported or sealed if it's too small it'd be boomy.

It's probably safe to say it would give the best commercially available 810 a real run for it's money.

[will33]

Increased output from adding 2 more 10's to your current 410.....

On paper.....1.5db from the additional drivers and maybe another 1.5 from increased amp output if you're not running a tube amp.


In real life it'll feel like a bit more than that. Mutual coupling of more drivers working together, little more heft in the lows, little bigger kick in the pants and drivers closer to the ears.

Really, I don't see where a 610 full of Betas would come up short. Run up to it's full potential you'll get to where it'll start drowning out some of the drums, except the snare, and uou're to that point again where things need to start going to the PA, in a perfect world anyway, which last I checked none of us live in.


If it were me, I'd probably put together a 210, stack it with what you've got and see how you like it before doing finishing, covering, etc. Then make the decision to keep it modular or build it all in one box. Option is also there to do a couple of them for a 410/610/810 type deal. Size the stack according to the gigs needs.

[creis2]

How big would the 810 have to be if I sealed it with the Faitials?

Don told me the box OD will be around 45 x 24 x 16. Minus for the 1/2" ply and the 3 or so inches in the baffle goes. Is this an appropriate size?

If not, what's a good size. Please explain. I always relay information I got off of Talkbass to Don, and it's always wrong and I look like a big idiot.

[will33]

I haven't modeled those Faitals but, like any other driver, there's "optimal" enclosure size/tuning, etc. geared toward lowest possible LF extension or flattest possible response, etc.........and then there's what will sound good with a bass guitar and fit through the door. A little bump in the midbass isn't always a bad thing, especially if the driver lacks very low frequency response or is hot in the upper mids. Likewise, putting a driver in a box big enough to reach 30hz just because it can isn't always the best use of available resources either. If this driver comes to a point where you need a lot more box to reach just a little deeper and lose a lot of mechanical handling to get there, I wouldn't put it in the bigger box.


So which bits of information parrotted off of talkbass are making you look dumb?....the list could be fairly long.

[Bmorefoozler]

Check Kringle77's thread about CTS drivers... He has built and tested both of these drivers in 6 or 8x10's in sealed configurations. I believe he used 1 CF per driver.

[creis2]

I tried modeling it, but since I have no idea what I'm doing, the results are useless.


Why are these drivers so light? They seem too good to be true.