Help me find my mids - LMII and Aguilar conflict?

Britbonic · #1 04-26-2011, 07:07 PM

I've been using a MB LMII for the past couple of years driving either 1 or 2 Aguilar GS112 cabs. While there are many things I like about this rig in terms of portability I'm starting to realize there are some shortcomings that I can't seem to get around. Specifically, I can't seem to dial in either low mid punch or upper mid clarity that works for me. I have several basses, couple of PBass, couple of Jbasses and J 5er so some variety in terms of bass tone. I find at rehearsals and on recordings from rehearsals that my sounds just gets lost in the mix. Doesn't seem to matter what the volume level is or how I set the EQ. I've tried the LMII suggestion from (Moody?) of backing off both mid controls to 9:00 and not using either of the filters. I've tried front ending it with an Aguilar Tonehammer which helps some but only when I'm standing next to my cabs. Part of the issue may be that I'm playing with a heavy handed drummer and probably competing alot with the kick. I know it's not the room since another bass player with an Epifani rig got great tone, plenty of mid clarity.

I'm starting to think from what I've been reading that the combination of scooped mids of the GS112s coupled with the EQ on LMII is taking away the mids I'm looking for. I know this is a pretty popular combo of amp and cabs so curious what others think or have found. Wondering if I need to look at different cabs or different head or both.

MuzikMan · #2 04-26-2011, 07:56 PM

As you already pointed out the GS112 cab is famous for being mid-shy. I remember a whole bunch of them going up on the used market a couple of years ago when everyone was doing their rounds buying the latest and greatest. The good thing is that they sold well and are seemingly desirable to a lot of people. I think this is the weak link in your chain.

joelb79 · #3 04-26-2011, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MuzikMan

As you already pointed out the GS112 cab is famous for being mid-shy. I remember a whole bunch of them going up on the used market a couple of years ago when everyone was doing their rounds buying the latest and greatest. The good thing is that they sold well and are seemingly desirable to a lot of people. I think this is the weak link in your chain.

Agreed. The LMII EQ is also limited in its EQ ability to add mids. You can add low mids and upper mids, but you cannot add the area you need to make that GS112 open up which is 500hz. I had that rig for a while, I would get rid of the cab. It sounds to me like a 210 is more your alley. I went as far as dropping deltalite 12's in the aggies and that opened up the mids a bunch, but the cabinet design was not optimal for that speaker and alas I sold them both separate. When I put the factory speaker back in I remember loving the lows more but missing the mids. I even found the Epifani 112's to have too much low mids and not enough clarity around 500hz. 10's just do it for me. Love my UL-410 but I wish it had less lows. Now I think my weak link is the LMII and its weak EQ.

Russell L · #4 04-26-2011, 08:00 PM

Well, I'll just say this. I can't answer all your questions, but here's what I've noticed with the LMII. I often wish I could boost at 100Hz, but the low mid knob is centered around 360Hz. I don't know if it varies as to what frequency it affects as you turn it, but I know I've had to look for what sounds I want. I've had mine for 2-1/2 years and still feel like I'm searching. Of course, some venues make it easier than others. And, I have had gigs where I was in heaven playing that amp (mine is in my 121H combo). When the volume is right at a gig that amps can sing. But, I'm also going through a B&C speaker in a Markbass cab, so it's hard to compare to your speakers. However, sometimes I am surprised by the sound I get once the band is playing, no matter what I thought I had before, alone. And then, other times, I can still find frequencies that aren't dialable on the amp by changing where I pluck the strings, and how I use my fingers. I haven't heard yet of anyone not finding a good sound on the LMII, although not everyone prefers it.

Eh, hard to say. Seems to me, though, that with such good equipment you oughta be able to find what you like. On my amp, I'm usually flat with the eq knbs, but with the VLE on noon or more, and the VPF off, or just at 9 o'clock. If it's a very dry room I might go on up some with the VPF, but not for every song. I'm playing an American Jazz, passive. I'm usually on both pickups with the knobs all the way up, including the tone knob. I think that if I played just on the front pickup it might help get the sound you're looking for if I don't boost the bottom end.

Well, hope that helps in some way.

murphy · #5 04-26-2011, 08:04 PM

Get a 4ohm 410 and your problems will be solved

MuzikMan · #6 04-26-2011, 08:09 PM

I think the key is that the OP used a Tone Hammer in front of it all and still couldn't get the sound he was after. The Tone Hammer has a semi parametric mid that can easily bring the right mids to the front. If that isn't cutting it then the cabs are the problem.

Britbonic · #7 04-27-2011, 02:41 PM

Thanks for all the suggestions and help. Kinda confirms what I was already thinking. I love the flexibility of having 2 12s that can be used separately or as a pair. A 4x10 would be nice but honestly not practical for many of the gig and practice situations that I have.

I had a chance yesterday test out some other cab options at a local music store, seemingly the only one in the Bay Area that has any amount of bass gear at all. Not sure what's up with GC but they seem to have less and less bass stuff all the time.

I played a couple of Bergantino AE cabs, the 1x12 and the 2x12, and really liked them. I especially liked the 2x12 version of that cab and it instantly gave me exactly the sound I was looking for. The store didn't have a LMII but a nice GB Shuttle 9 which was set flat. Realize even flat was probably not apples to apples compared to LMII but good enough for comparison. They also had a GS112 so could switch back and forth between them. Also tried with some of the HS series cabs but liked the sound of the AE's better. I had always thought of these as hifi sounding cabs but to me they delivered exactly what I was looking for - nice bottom, midrange clarity and smooth upper mids and highs.

Part of the challenge of getting the right sound is the terms that people use and what they really mean. Growl, punch, mid focused, mid scooped - don't always translate to what you think they might. Chatting with the bass guy at store, I asked him how he would describe the Bergantino cab sound and he said "flat" meaning there they were relatively even across the frequency spectrum with no significant peaks or dips.

Based on this I think I will start looking at new cab options. The Bergs are nice, but pricey. Any suggestions for alternatives that would have similar sound profile?

Russell L · #8 04-27-2011, 02:47 PM

Well, I haven't played all those different cabs, but I'll say that the Markbass 121H cab is a bit bigger than some others, basically like the cab in my 121H combo. It has a good sound to me. have you seen any of those around? They're usually right at $500.

Eublet · #9 04-27-2011, 02:51 PM

If you like the tone of the LMII, then another option might be to trade the LMII for an SA450. A little larger format, but the same tone as the LMII more or less with dual semi-parametric mid controls. Much more flexible.

Britbonic · #10 04-27-2011, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russell L

Well, I haven't played all those different cabs, but I'll say that the Markbass 121H cab is a bit bigger than some others, basically like the cab in my 121H combo. It has a good sound to me. have you seen any of those around? They're usually right at $500.

I have seen them around but haven't done any extensive playing thru them. Seems like the MB cabs vary alot depending on model and configuration. Worth a try.

Britbonic · #11 04-27-2011, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eublet

If you like the tone of the LMII, then another option might be to trade the LMII for an SA450. A little larger format, but the same tone as the LMII more or less with dual semi-parametric mid controls. Much more flexible.

I do like the LMII but don't have alot to compare it too. Prior to that I had a GK MB150E that I used to drive a Agi GS210 and an Ashdown Electric Blue 150 combo. IIRC, the SA450 is quite a bit bigger and heavier than the LMII. After hearing the cab differences yesterday, I think I will start there and if it doesn't get me what I want may look at other amp options. There are some great small amps with big power around these days. The GB shuttle 9 I played sounded really nice with the AE212.

spufman · #12 04-28-2011, 09:52 AM

If you generally like those cabs, try and borrow a Markbass F1 or F500 to see if that works better for you. My F1 into 2x GS112 rig punches through the mix beautifully with any of my basses.

Russell L · #13 04-28-2011, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spufman

If you generally like those cabs, try and borrow a Markbass F1 or F500 to see if that works better for you. My F1 into 2x GS112 rig punches through the mix beautifully with any of my basses.

Does the F1 have different frequency centers than the LMII? I don't know right off without going to look it up. I think the watts are the same, though.

Eublet · #14 04-28-2011, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russell L

Does the F1 have different frequency centers than the LMII? I don't know right off without going to look it up. I think the watts are the same, though.

Yes. Same exact frequency centers on all knobs. The F1 is little tighter sounding than the LMII however, but the issue of boosting mids in the locations you want will still exist. The F500 however has two semi-parametric mids.

Britbonic · #15 04-28-2011, 10:59 AM

Thanks for the suggestion, I may try that approach. I used this set up last night with the moodie settings backing of the mids to 9:00 and no tonehammer preamp. Seems to help some but bottom was still a bit looser than I liked. More mids came through but also had more string/fret noise than normal in recordings.

Britbonic · #16 05-05-2011, 09:20 PM

Quick update. I tried something last night that made a huge difference. I dialed back the low mids, high mids and bass control to 9:00. Results were amazing. Just enough lows to hear it but most importantly no conflict with bass drum. Best sound I've had to date. Oh, playing a 62 ri jazz with Lollar pickups, no tonehammer preamp.