Help me get over my fear of 1x12

[Russell L]

Originally Posted by socialleper

I'm going to have to resist the urge to be rude here. But its hard because being rude comes easily to me....

"Try one out" Don't you think that occurred to me already? That it would be simpler to actually try one rather than rely on the opinions of strangers on an internet site?
A LOT of the brands mentioned on TB are not common at all and I really have no idea how people came across them. Until I got on TB I had never heard of Bergantino; I only know of one store that stocks anything Aguilar. I can't even find a German made Warwick new. Most of what I have around me are big box chains, and unless they have something used, their stock is predictable and bland.

I understand your situation. I never heard of Markbass before until four years ago when I started looking around on the Internet. I bought a Markbass rig, sight unseen, never heard before, just using my noggin, hoping I was making a wise choice. I did.

But, please do go on the Barefaced site and read the tech stuff at least. It's about how speakers work and the new technology. Then, read what Alex has to say about his cabs. I want one or two, definitely. I'm 62 and want the best bang for my buck in lightweight cabs. I think Barefaced has it. Can't try them out anywhere either, but I'll bet I'm right.

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by MysticMichael

The point I'm trying to make is that you may just need to take a leap of faith.

Like you, I am aware of the newer boutique brands (i.e. AudioKinesis, Baer, Barefaced, etc.) ONLY because I'm a regular user of TalkBass, especially since each one of those brands is very new (though I was at least familiar with Acme, Bergantino, and Epifani prior to joining TalkBass eight years ago...)



You really can't infer much of anything from what Guitar Center chooses to stock - or not stock - especially when it comes to bass gear. Pay more attention to what the bass specialty shops stock, i.e. The Bass Emporium, Bass Central, The Bass Place, etc.).

Bottom line: Some of the new, high-performance 1x12 cabs are indeed "all that", and more. In fact, they're frickin' awesome.

If you don't yet have an idea of exactly which make & model would be ideal for your particular application, spend a little more time lurking on the 1x12 threads - and pay particular attention to the posts of opinion leaders "KJung" and "tombowlus".

OK, that's it. Quit yer bitchin' and moanin', and go forth and obtain.

MM

I didn't get any thing as polite as an opinion from, the opinion leader KJung he didn't want to playother than what's lighter than what. You see I am not the slightest bit interested in judging loudspeaker performance with a set of scales, how ever accurate, I judge loudspeaker performance by what they sound like to the best microphones I can lay my hands on.

Strange We seem to keep coming back to the same old brands and models of 12" speakers in studio, I bet opinion leader JohnK 10 could tell you exactly what they are just by glancing at the cones without needing to read it off the back covers.
All the usual suspects are there, JBL, EV, ALtec, ATC.
Increase your Qts by very much at all in the design stage to maximise VLF handling and pay the tone/efficiency deficit.
There is no free lunch!

[Russell L]

Personally, I'm not concerned about how speakers record as much as I'm concerned about how easily I can get the cab to the venues I play at, and whether they give me a good sound as well. To those ends I find that the new stuff is what suits me. My Markbass cabs do the trick for now until I can get something even lighter. And they sound REAL good!

[chadds]

I second ignoring what the big box stores stock. Their impetus and yours can be at cross purposes. Many boutique stores will send you a cab or bass on approval. You pay shipping. Sometimes this is all we can do. The advantage can be that shipping is cheaper than your drive and you get to hear the cab in your environment.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Bassmec

I didn't get any thing as polite as an opinion from, the opinion leader KJung he didn't want to playother than what's lighter than what. You see I am not the slightest bit interested in judging loudspeaker performance with a set of scales, how ever accurate, I judge loudspeaker performance by what they sound like to the best microphones I can lay my hands on.

Strange We seem to keep coming back to the same old brands and models of 12" speakers in studio, I bet opinion leader JohnK 10 could tell you exactly what they are just by glancing at the cones without needing to read it off the back covers.
All the usual suspects are there, JBL, EV, ALtec, ATC.
Increase your Qts by very much at all in the design stage to maximise VLF handling and pay the tone/efficiency deficit.
There is no free lunch!

You are very difficult to respond to (in this and other threads). If your argument is that there is no improvement in speaker technology, and all old heavy stuff sounds 'better' than all new lighter stuff, then there is no meaningful discussion that can be had IMO. Also, your comment (that you post over and over) that those who use lightweight gear are compromising their tone for weight is inaccurate, and quite frankly, offensive.

Your comment of 'no free lunch' is true though. The good news is, power is cheap now, and finally there are drivers that have thermal power rating pretty well matched with mechanical specs. This means that 'while there is no free lunch' (I agree), there is now 'very cheap lunch' which sounds wonderful and really has changed the lives of the vast majority of professional bassist who either play in the freelance world (i.e., schlepping their own gear with no help from 'band members, often in difficult load in situations), or guys playing small/moderate sized clubs/privates with either limited front of house support and often, no separate monitor mix for the bass and/or monitor s that results in a less than pleasing bass tone on stage.

Put another way, the change over the past number of years from 'finding the most efficient speakers you can so a massively heavy but relatively low powered all tube amp can scream' to 'getting the most low end and volume out of a smaller cab by loading it with a driver that can actually handle a bunch of power, which now can come from small, lightweight amps costing under a dollar per watt' is quite remarkable for me, and makes the famous 'you can have two of the three 'loud, small, or low' almost a moot point in some cases.

If, on the other hand, you are talking about major touring acts with roadies and massive front of house support and 'tour level' multi-mix monitor systems (which seems to be mostly what you are talking about), I totally agree that all this is meaningless, since a small light bass cab would have no benefit whatsover.

Amazing time right now for the 'freelance pro' or the 'mid level working bassist', who can now generate a GREAT tone and fit a rig in the trunk of a Honda Civic. This is a very good thing for me. Or course, I totally agree that for players in other situations, it is a big 'meh'.

Again, context is key here. As you often post in thread after thread, if your context is massive, arena level line arrays with subs, then I agree, a lightweight 112 that can almost keep up with a full weight 410 is pretty uninteresting news.

Edit: To support what you are saying at least in some ways, one thing that has become unfortunately rampant on this site is that 'load a 3015LF in a cab with a mid driver, and it is the best thing ever'. While this is true based on just looking at a handful of limited specs, it has very little to do with tonality, and I'll take an old JBL 15 in a wooden box any day of the week over those designs. So, I get what you are saying, but I would not 'throw the baby out with the bathwater'. Lots of new designs with these 'improved' lightweight components that sound wonderful.

[RColie]

Originally Posted by dukeorock

All great, yet very different choices...I think the AudioKinesis is one of the best cab companies going today, but I wouldn't describe the tone as 'big and fat.' Very hi-fi and detailed, but not huge in the lows...of the 3 mentioned I would say the Berg has the biggest low end, wouldn't you?

Hmmmmmm...depends on how you define "biggest low end" I suppose. I used a pair of Berg HD112s for a while (awesome cabinets) and I now use AudioKinesis TC112s and TC115s (even more awesome cabinets). I haven't played an Acme, but descriptions here on TB lead me to believe it will go the deepest of the three. The Berg *might* have the biggest low end (as in big and fat), but I think the TC112 has the cleanest, punchiest, most usable low end (for my tastes at least). As usual, YMMV.

Respectively,

Bob

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by KJung

You are very difficult to respond to (in this and other threads). If your argument is that there is no improvement in speaker technology, and all old heavy stuff sounds 'better' than all new ligher stuff, then there is no discussion that can be had. Also, you comment (that you post over and over) that those who use lighweight gear are compromising their tone for weight is inaccurate, and quite frankly, offensive.

Your comment of 'no free lunch' is true though. The good news is, power is cheap now, and finally there are drivers that have thermal power rating pretty well matched with mechanical specs. This means that 'while there is no free lunch' (I agree), there is now 'very cheap lunch' which sounds wonderful and really has changed the lives of the vast majority of professional bassist who either play in the freelance world (i.e., schlepping their own gear with no help from 'band members, often in difficult load in situations), or guys playing small/moderate sized clubs/privates with either limited front of house support and often, no separate monitor mix for the bass and/or monitor s that do not result in a pleasing bass tone on stage.

Put another way, the change over the past number of years from 'finding the most efficient speakers you can so a massively heavy but relatively low powered all tube amp can screem' to 'getting the most low end and volume out of a smaller cab by loading it with a driver that can actually handle a bunch of power, which now can come from small, lightweight amps costing under a dollar per watt' is quite remarkable for me, and makes the famous 'you can have two of the three 'loud, small, or low' almost a mute point in some cases.

If, on the other hand, you are talking about major touring acts with roadies and massive front of house support and 'tour level' multi-mix monitor systems (which seems to be mostly what you are talking about), I totally agree that all this is meaningless, since a small light bass cab would have no benefit whatsover.

Amazing time right now for the 'freelance pro' or the 'mid level working bassist', who can now generate a GREAT tone and fit a rig in the trunk of a Honda Civic. This is a very good thing for me. Or course, I totally agree that for players in other situations, it is a big 'meh'.

Again, context is key here. As you often post in thread after thread, if your context is massive, arena level line arrays with subs, then I agree, a lightweight 112 that can almost keep up with a full weight 410 is pretty uninteresting news.

I agree with everything you have written, I have lived my whole life trying to service the needs of an industry that is shrinking before my very eyes. I am not at all happy about it and it certainly isn't in the old spirit of conspicuous consumption and Rock and Roll excess, that I so love. it's become an insidious process that my employers Cradle of Filth will have to deal with as they do the next 49 European shows before Christmas. "Ya Tommy! das ist der bass rig, over zare behind zat cymbal case, younger!".

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Bassmec

I agree with everything you have written, I have lived my whole life trying to service the needs of an industry that is shrinking before my very eyes. I am not at all happy about it and it certainly isn't in the old spirit of conspicuous consumption and Rock and Roll excess, that I so love. it's become an insidious process that my employers Cradle of Filth will have to deal with as they do the next 49 European shows before Christmas. "Ya Tommy! das ist der bass rig, over zare behind zat cymbal case, younger!".

Well, as another 'old guy' (I'm coming up on 56) who starting 'gigging for a living' in 1973, I will wallow with you in despair.

I really feel sorry for the younger guys who are very talented but are unlucky enough to start their careers in the 2000's. Not much left in live performance other than low paying classic rock bar gigs, and bad wedding bands on Saturday nights.

I often get calls from young players who are referred to me when making career decisions (since I kind of have one foot in the professional gigging world, and one foot in the 'corporate world'). It is easy to tell a kid with limited talent to 'keep going with music as a hobby, but make music your plan B. It is much more difficult having that discussion with a kid that plays better than I do after 40 years of gigging. Very depressing. Some of these kids are too good to 'not do it', but I fear for them having a miserable lives of 'no money, no health insurance, no benefits at all, etc.).

Sorry for the grim post

[KJung]

Another slightly less OT 'old guy' post. I started my gigging career as a keyboard player.

One of my most vivid 'shake my head at it' memories is doing gigs with my Fender Rhodes 73 and a Peavey amp.... 215 cab that I crammed Altec Lansing 15's in, with a 'bright box' of piezo tweeters on top

The Fender Rhodes AND the huge 215 cab fit in the trunk of my grandparent's Buick Electra 225 Amazing when you think about it. That was actually a 'compact keyboard set-up' at the time (compared to the B3 guys with 147's

[socialleper]

Originally Posted by Bassmec

Uh...is that a speaker mounted inside a drum shell....what the hell?

[spector_boogie]

Originally Posted by socialleper

Uh...is that a speaker mounted inside a drum shell....what the hell?

Looks like someone is ripping off Joey at Klops Drums!

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=klops+drums+

[socialleper]

Originally Posted by KJung

I really feel sorry for the younger guys who are very talented but are unlucky enough to start their careers in the 2000's. Not much left in live performance other than low paying classic rock bar gigs, and bad wedding bands on Saturday nights.

+1 to this.

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by spector_boogie

Looks like someone is ripping off Joey at Klops Drums!

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=klops+drums+

Mr Klops has it the wrong way round completely.
Mr Yamaha is the one ripping me off with a dodgy little 6.5" speaker attempt, no input impedance transformer or attenuator, my speaker of choice is one of those old low power Trio ultra compliant 30Hz fs alnico magnet sub woofers, with a western electric transformer and metal film resistors. Now that's a properly built Sub Kick.
We have been doing this for millennia.http://usa.yamaha.com/products/music...fv/?mode=model

[dukeorock]

Originally Posted by RColie

Hmmmmmm...depends on how you define "biggest low end" I suppose. I used a pair of Berg HD112s for a while (awesome cabinets) and I now use AudioKinesis TC112s and TC115s (even more awesome cabinets). I haven't played an Acme, but descriptions here on TB lead me to believe it will go the deepest of the three. The Berg *might* have the biggest low end (as in big and fat), but I think the TC112 has the cleanest, punchiest, most usable low end (for my tastes at least). As usual, YMMV.

Respectively,

Bob

I was judging between, Berg, Baer and AudioKinesis...missed the Acme altogether

Yeah, the Acme's tend to sound deeper than most, not that 'deeper' implies better or worse.

I have a lot of gigs under my belt with the TC115AF and have sung it's praises many times...Duke makes amazing stuff.

These days when I want to bend the 'iron law' I go with the FEARLESS 112. That works best for me in the 'super 12' category, but that's me

[Not yet]

Round and round

Couldn't audition what I was interested in, bought them online, tried w guarantee of return policy and if hated sent back and ate the $40 in shipping. Which I probably woulda spent in gas going store to store if anyone in my town stocked anything I was interested in

And finally ended up w something that made me happy. That simple

And helluva lot cheaper than my earlier brilliant strategy of buying things, using them for two months and realizing I hated them and selling at a 40% loss

[dukeorock]

Maybe just a tad cynical

[socialleper]

I'm getting close to pulling the trigger on some new gear for a mini rig of doom.
For speakers I'm deciding between Aguilar and GK. Begantino eliminated themselves; Jim told me that the closest place to try them was about 4 hours away. That + price = probably not going to happen. The Genz Benz Focus cabs might be good but I can't find those anywhere either. Part of me likes the big ballsy tone of the GS112, part of me likes the aggression and lack of carpet on the Neo 112-II (my wallet sort of likes the GK more too.)
Heads I'm less set on. I like something about the TH500, the MB500 and the Shuttle 6.2. The TH500 has a warmer, woolier tone, but a higher price and a lack of used ones on Ebay. The MB500 is more price friendly, has a nice bite to it, is SO small and easier to find used. The Shuttle 6.2 is a little in between them, both in sound and availability used. I like that the TH500 and Shuttle both have cases for them. If I could swing a MB800 I like that it lit up in the front; kinda nice for those dark stages.
Decisions decisions.

[Vandy]

Originally Posted by KJung

. . . fit in the trunk of my grandparent's Buick Electra 225 Amazing when you think about it. That was actually a 'compact keyboard set-up' at the time (compared to the B3 guys with 147's

Ah-h-h . . .
A deuce & a quarter . . .

[Blankandson]

Originally Posted by socialleper

The part about the volume of 2x12s being higher than an average 1x15 I get. I also really like the idea of having two smaller cabs that will fit into my Mazda 3 better than a 1x15. I had to sell my 4x10 when I realized it wouldn't fit in my car any more.

The part that scares me the most is the loss of lows. Having two 12" speakers with ports makes sense, I'm just unsure if I can get the depth I want out of the B on my 5 string Warwick $$ from a 2x12 stack. I'm looking for a Geezer Butler, Bob Daisley, Bryan Richie (The Sword) kind of tone, not anything super brite or too extreme in the high mids. Any recommendations for some 112s that will stack to do this?

It took me about 30 minutes to get the sound I wanted on the GK MB112 from my 94 5-stg Warwick but once I got there it was very nice. Got all the lows (including from the B) mids and highs I need. Also, about getting everything into your Mazda, I'm looking into getting the new GK MB112 combo and two MB112 powered cabs (3 x 12s and 600 watts) as I can put all three into the trunk of my Toyota.

[astack]

Here's some exposure therapy for ya.