Help me get over my fear of 1x12

[will33]

Originally Posted by Bassmec

Mr Klops has it the wrong way round completely.
Mr Yamaha is the one ripping me off with a dodgy little 6.5" speaker attempt, no input impedance transformer or attenuator, my speaker of choice is one of those old low power Trio ultra compliant 30Hz fs alnico magnet sub woofers, with a western electric transformer and metal film resistors. Now that's a properly built Sub Kick.
We have been doing this for millennia.http://usa.yamaha.com/products/music...fv/?mode=model

How's that kit put together with the transformer, resistors and all?

I have one of these. http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=295-036

Also an old 15" something or other around here with a pretty loose suspension.

You still place that in front of the reso head, no?


If this is all proprietary information under the vest of the proprietor...I understand, but beware ol' chap....I am the spawn of Deutchlanders and still have some of those spy contacts you mention.

[NWB]

Originally Posted by socialleper

I'm getting close to pulling the trigger on some new gear for a mini rig of doom.
For speakers I'm deciding between Aguilar and GK. Begantino eliminated themselves; Jim told me that the closest place to try them was about 4 hours away. That + price = probably not going to happen. The Genz Benz Focus cabs might be good but I can't find those anywhere either. Part of me likes the big ballsy tone of the GS112, part of me likes the aggression and lack of carpet on the Neo 112-II (my wallet sort of likes the GK more too.)
Heads I'm less set on. I like something about the TH500, the MB500 and the Shuttle 6.2. The TH500 has a warmer, woolier tone, but a higher price and a lack of used ones on Ebay. The MB500 is more price friendly, has a nice bite to it, is SO small and easier to find used. The Shuttle 6.2 is a little in between them, both in sound and availability used. I like that the TH500 and Shuttle both have cases for them. If I could swing a MB800 I like that it lit up in the front; kinda nice for those dark stages.
Decisions decisions.

I use the TH500 with a pair of Hartke Hydrive 112s and it sounds wonderful (to me). I find the Hartkes to be fairly even and balanced throughout the tone spectrum.

I'll say that the Shuttle 6.2 is likely a very nice head too and would work well with a pair of Focus 112 cabs.

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by will33

How's that kit put together with the transformer, resistors and all?

I have one of these. http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=295-036

Also an old 15" something or other around here with a pretty loose suspension.

You still place that in front of the reso head, no?


If this is all proprietary information under the vest of the proprietor...I understand, but beware ol' chap....I am the spawn of Deutchlanders and still have some of those spy contacts you mention.

Yup that 18" has a very good fs for the job but its only disadvantage is its size because, if you use it on the kick drum it will get in the way of ideal placement of the in front kick mic, Yamaha were right about a twelve inch drum shell being ideal for the job but disappointingly only fitted a small driver with quite a high fs, not what I want as my previous home made version was just an old kef b139 race track driver the sort with a solid polystyrene tapered block in place of a cone.
Simply Hanging the chassis in front of the kick drum from a boom mic stand on household string and no transformer or pad resistors sounded better than yamaha's effort.
Lucky I inherited quite a lot of useful values in western audio transformers and tube test gear, I used a transformer that was to convert 30 ohm microphones to 250 ohms and made a balanced -20 pad on the transformer secondary and adjusted it to trim it around 600ohms
Helps the sound because I get slight compression from the transformer saturation with the 8ohm 12" trio hi fi bass driver I finally chose.
German espionage eh! Bit late for secrecy now I have given the game away!
My family had quite a lot to do with trying to counter that sort of thing during WW2 I will have you know old chap,
My grandpa was ARMY specialising in communications in the SOE, so spies and espionage kinda run in my family too.
his elder brother Sir Henry was Royal Navy through and through and was very involved in testing some of the first acoustic torpedoes and generally developing hydro phones and other listening equipment etc.

[will33]

Originally Posted by Bassmec

Yup that 18" has a very good fs for the job but its only disadvantage is its size because, if you use it on the kick drum it will get in the way of ideal placement of the in front kick mic, Yamaha were right about a twelve inch drum shell being ideal for the job but disappointingly only fitted a small driver with quite a high fs, not what I want as my previous home made version was just an old kef b139 race track driver the sort with a solid polystyrene tapered block in place of a cone.
Simply Hanging the chassis in front of the kick drum from a boom mic stand on household string and no transformer or pad resistors sounded better than yamaha's effort.
Lucky I inherited quite a lot of useful values in western audio transformers and tube test gear, I used a transformer that was to convert 30 ohm microphones to 250 ohms and made a balanced -20 pad on the transformer secondary and adjusted it to trim it around 600ohms
Helps the sound because I get slight compression from the transformer saturation with the 8ohm 12" trio hi fi bass driver I finally chose.
German espionage eh! Bit late for secrecy now I have given the game away!
My family had quite a lot to do with trying to counter that sort of thing during WW2 I will have you know old chap,
My grandpa was ARMY specialising in communications in the SOE, so spies and espionage kinda run in my family too.
his elder brother Sir Henry was Royal Navy through and through and was very involved in testing some of the first acoustic torpedoes and generally developing hydro phones and other listening equipment etc.

Moochass Grassyass und Vielen Dank. 'Tis but an airline ticket from Argentina to Ipswich which prevents me from procuring your wares.

I love this guy. ^^

Many thanks for the numbers. Ja, es ist the size of the thing which causes me pause. SubKick for sub, front mic for tone. Batter head mic for...well...batting?


Thanks much Bassmec. Got what I needed out of that bit.

[acleex38]

Originally Posted by NWB

I use the TH500 with a pair of Hartke Hydrive 112s and it sounds wonderful (to me). I find the Hartkes to be fairly even and balanced throughout the tone spectrum.

I'll say that the Shuttle 6.2 is likely a very nice head too and would work well with a pair of Focus 112 cabs.

I'm using the same TH500/Hydrive rig and love it. Admittedly, my prior experience with 12s was a.) a Hartke Kickback 12 and b.) a discontinued Eden 1x12 I found used, played through for a year, then sold in mid-2008. Wish I had more experience with the higher-end stuff, but this is absolutely getting the job done for me (several times over) for the foreseeable future.

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by will33

Moochass Grassyass und Vielen Dank. 'Tis but an airline ticket from Argentina to Ipswich which prevents me from procuring your wares.

I love this guy. ^^

Many thanks for the numbers. Ja, es ist the size of the thing which causes me pause. SubKick for sub, front mic for tone. Batter head mic for...well...batting?


Thanks much Bassmec. Got what I needed out of that bit.

This is really quite a coincidence my mother is an Argy born in Buenos Aires.
You see my dad as a young Lt Commander RNVR had no problem pulling an attractive argentine girl because she was aware of some of my great uncle Henry's heroic exploits just off Montevideo.
Your relations were probably sneakily listening to the phone lines when our man Millington Drake was talking to the Ambassador about bunkering an aircraft carrier and escort eh! own up!, I bet it was from your grand old chaps former wicket eh!
To a certain extent we relied on cunning German espionage agents communications skills eh!.Blighters! Still you have the formerly top secret uber sub kick design safely on microfilm now.
It's great on bass guitar and kick drum it adds such a lot of nicely compressed woof! to the mic sound .

[bumperbass]

Originally Posted by will33

How's that kit put together with the transformer, resistors and all?

I have one of these. http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=295-036

Also an old 15" something or other around here with a pretty loose suspension.

You still place that in front of the reso head, no?


If this is all proprietary information under the vest of the proprietor...I understand, but beware ol' chap....I am the spawn of Deutchlanders and still have some of those spy contacts you mention.

First, you have to hook up the bass drum head to a trigger sensor. Then you hook the sensor into a drum emulator. That's transformer-coupled to the PA head and also to the kick drum amplifier. That way, the efficiency on the drum amplifier is very high because it's only 'on' when the trigger is enabled.
I am lost after that. I don't know where you solder the resistors. I think I've seen them taped to the side of the drum just to make it look more 'electronic'.
Actually, I invented this system, but I used a very low Xmax 18" driver with an FS of 2Hz. I used a 2000 watt amp. It worked OK for single bass pedals, but if a double pedal was used, the speaker wouldn't cool off before the next transient spike and eventually the coil would come off the bobbins due to the thermal rating of the epoxy.
Nobody stole my idea. Why? Because it didn't work very well.

[will33]

Well, the woofer is the microphone. It's a transducer, just working "in reverse" so to speak. You can take any speaker, rig wires from it's terminals to a 1/4" to plug in the front of any amp, sing into the cone and you will hear it. Was wondering about the cone fs, suspension stiffnes, transformer, padding, etc. to get a more quality sound. Ya, if it's too loose, I can see the woofer not calming down between fast kicks. The looser suspension would give you more travel, a stronger signal hitting the amp input. Got to be a happy medium there somewhere.

[will33]

I've seen it work without any triggers or emulators, just movement of the reso head moving the cone. I say work, but not always work well. I think that's where getting the right combination of woofer fs and suspension stiffness comes in.

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by will33

I've seen it work without any triggers or emulators, just movement of the reso head moving the cone. I say work, but not always work well. I think that's where getting the right combination of woofer fs and suspension stiffness comes in.

The best woofer to use as a microphone is one that has as low a power handling as you can find with very low fundamental resonance, so it's really agile.
If you can find that in an old alnico design, so much the better, because they are like Neo rare earth magnets, lighter than ceramic magnet drivers, so the support stand balance problems lessen.
I used a pearl export 12" Tom with a mesh head on the bottom and a trio alnico 8 ohm 50 watt driver from a hi fi cabinet.
To mount it I just used the pearl Tom mount arm stuffed into the bottom half of a Premiere snare drum stand, it worked great.

[socialleper]

WHOA! I want to make sure I'm following this conversation properly. Not only did someone purposely mount a speaker into a drum shell (as opposed to a fit of drug induced fancy) but they are using it as a microphone?
Is that what that thing is?

[will33]

Originally Posted by socialleper

WHOA! I want to make sure I'm following this conversation properly. Not only did someone purposely mount a speaker into a drum shell (as opposed to a fit of drug induced fancy) but they are using it as a microphone?
Is that what that thing is?

Yes. Speakers are microphones in reverse, both are transducers.

[bumperbass]

I've seen some setups where a 'loose' 18" was used as the passive radiator at the front head of the bass drum. Of course, the curved ports on the side of the shell are very hard to design. Even the software can't calculate port area on a curved surface, so it's still a very experimental thing. More trial and error than science, but I've seen it work.

[spcmstrbtasp]

Originally Posted by BbbyBld

Peavey worked with Eminence in the 90's to develop a 12 for bass that would bridge the gap between 10's and 15's. At the time, 12's were used in practice combos. There was a 112 "airhead", a 212, and a 412. We couldn't give them away because we couldn't convince bass players to buy 12's. People said "12's are for guitar". Now, some people seek those cabs out. Some bass players now will ONLY play 12's because that's the latest trend.

Peavey has had the same difficulty selling 15's to guitar players.

I have cabs with 10's, 12's and 15's. I like them all for different things. You'd think a good sounding speaker would automatically sell, but that's not the case. Guitarists and bassists can be very superstitious about speakers.

I had one of the Peavey 1x12 airhead tilt back cabs in the late 90s. It had a coax high frequency driver. It wasn't light by today's standards, but it was a totally capable cabinet. At the time, though I thought I needed 10s so I traded it away... Don't judge sound by speaker diameter...

[Raymeous]

There are a ton of 1x12 amps on the market today.

The thing is that guitar speakers are a totally different thing from a bass speaker. guitar speakers are designed to distort while a bass speaker has more in common with PA speakers being designed to reproduce a clearer signal. While a guitar cab might come with a Celestian Vintage 30 (60 watt speaker, go figure) a bass amp may have speakers able to handle 200+ watts.

The only real downside to going with a single smaller speaker is the ability to move air.

[monti2889]

18's go BOOOMM!
15's go BOOM!
12's go boom!
10's go boo!

[mozilla314]

I have one of those GK MB combo
amps with a 1X12 and it's fine for
my wedding band because my bass
is going thru the PA anyway and I'm
trying to keep my stage volume down.
If I wasn't going thru the PA or if I
we're playing a House of Blues type
stage, I think I would have to break out
the 15 inch.

[Tmoney865]

OK I am revising my next Rig Cabinet Selection.

Not sure if it was this thread or one where the 212t was compared to 2 of the 112t's, someone claimed the 2 112's were deeper over the one 212t. Hard to believe that 5" of height could make an audible difference. Oh Well.

And the guy with the 6 112 Edens turning 4 tweeters off gives me confidence that I will be touring with spare parts.

Thanks guys.

The rig is now:

GB ShuttleMax 12.2
and
4 x GB Neox (or NX) 112t's.
2 of the Cabs will have to be Customized with 2 Speakons on the back

[socialleper]

So after much deliberation, driving around, and returns, I have built myself a light weight mini-rig of doom using 1x12 cabs.
Here is the process I went through:
I started off with a pretty strong list of things to try. Unfortunately Bergantino and Genz Benz eliminated themselves very quickly. The Berg sales rep that responded was quick and helpful, but told me that the only dealers they knew would have their cabs were either in San Diego or the Bay Area. If you can't sell your product in LA, one of the largest economies in the world, which is also home to several record labels and famous clubs, you don't get my business. The GB guy took more than week to respond and said they don't track that sort of thing (translation= "go F your self.") Plus the reviews of the Focus cabs made them sound a little cheaply built.
That left me with Aguilar and Gallien Krueger. I had reservations about both: All Aguilar equipment is pretty expensive and GK is known for having a very modern, biting tone. I eliminated the Aggie DB series because the retro look is not for me and the cloth speaker cover is just begging to get ripped. I liked the sound of the GS series well enough, could find some used for OK prices, but the carpet cover was a deal breaker. I've had cabs with that stuff on it and just absolutely hate it. I finally decided on the GK after hearing a 2x12 combo (the 1x12 cabs are completely non-existent in retail stores) and really dug the meaty lows.
I purchased one GK Neo 112 II from follow TBer Tank73 for a really good price, then tried find another used one. I bought one used one from GC that had a DOA woofer out of the box. Then I tried ordering a used one from Musicians Friend which distorted heavily. Quick note to MI retailers: Maybe you should try your $%^! out before you put it in a box and shipping it @$$ holes! With no other used one's quickly available on Ebay or Craig's List, I had The Amp Shop/Bass Exchange in Sherman Oaks order me a new one.

After a month of research, testing, returns, and a blown budget I'm the happy owner of 2 GK Neo 112 cabs and a GB Shuttle 9.0. I will need to tool around with the EQ to get it exactly where I want it, but the volume and general tone is pretty awesome for a rig that weighs maybe 70 pounds total. Thanks to everyone for your expert opinions and words of encouragement. Let the aural destruction begin!

[wcriley]

Originally Posted by socialleper

...The GB guy took more than week to respond and said they don't track that sort of thing (translation= "go F your self.")...

I bought a Shuttlemax from an ebay retailer and wanted to be sure I was buying from an authorized dealer. I sent an email in the evening and Jeff Genzler replied the next morning.