Help me stop the tube snobbery in my band.

[lomo]

Wow. Wiz this is a defensive derail. Simply reverse both the thread title and the guitarist's preference and it becomes eminently clear that the guitarist's behavior is obnoxious, juvenile and disruptive, regardless of what he prefers. How the bassist should react is the intended the subject of the thread.

[Nev375]

Secretly give your guitarist a blind taste test of both amps to see if his preference is consistent.

Bring your SVT in and actually play through it one session. It is a given they will prefer it.

Next session hide your other amp behind it. Theoretically, your band should notice right away. At the end of the session ask them if they are still happy with your tone.

Go back and forth a few more times. But never clue them in to what you are doing.

Then make your choice after you know for sure if your bandmates know the difference. If they actually DO notice, be a team player and stick with the SVT. If they can't tell then claim the SVT needs to go into the shop and tell them you prefer to not move it around for fear it may need further repair.

It's your gear and your choice. I'm skeptical about your guitarist too, but be prepared to be wrong.

[bluesdogblues]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Said this many times before, but I don't care if the audience doesn't know. It's not their job to know.

Originally Posted by JimmyM

My SVT is a holy relic:



Anyway, though it's true that it's all about the musicians and the audience really only cares if you play well and have a good mix, well why not just use some $50 practice amp with a 58 on it? Why buy nice gear at all?

EDIT: I've fixed it up a bit since then with new grillcloth and a few new knobs.

Originally Posted by two fingers

Nice blue line. And quite a nice history behind it. Bet it sounds amazing to ME. But the girls in the front row don't care.

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Man, is that the truth! There are a lot of musicians out there who believe their audiences are morons and they as musicians possess far greater abilities at hearing things than the audience. More often than not, they end up not being a draw. Audiences aren't stupid. They might not be able to tell the difference from an SVT and a hold in the ground, but they can tell when the mix sounds crappy, they can tell when you sing or play badly, and they can tell when you phone it in.


Exactly. I have had many similar experiences. Our drummer's girlfriend is not musical in any way, but she could tell when I switched basses after using only one for a while. And the first time I used the SVT after years of not using it, I got 5 or 6 people coming up to me telling me that they heard the bass in a way they never heard it before and they loved it. There are other stories I could tell about the audience's perception of tone. Don't kid yourselves...it's as strong as anyone's, even if they don't know how to play an instrument like all you Greek gods up there


Ya, there's a term for musicians who get mortally offended when band members make suggestions to them...that term is "unemployed musicians."

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Bet they do when I turn it on and the phat tones from it make them dance and pull their tops off for me.

Originally Posted by JimmyM

That simply wouldn't happen.



But if it did, you know what I would do? Measure how much I'm getting paid and how regularly I'd be employed by them vs. the cost of buying an amp they like. If it made monetary sense, I'd do it. If it didn't, I'd tell them if they bring it, I will play it.

But seriously, who the hell's going to tell a bass player not to bring an Ampeg? At worst, I might get, "Hey, we love the SVT, but it's a bit much for a light jazz gig in a 100 seat restaurant, isn't it?"

I'm getting dizzy reading long thread so eventually I only read Jimmy M's comments and quote them here.

JimmyM: I agree with you almost 100%.

This is what in my head now about this topic:

*SVT is HEAVY and cumbersome to bring. But IT IS A VERY GREAT AMP that you can't easily substitute with any lighter amps. (Sonic wise and Visually too for some people, yes).

*The Good Sounds - and visual (of our bass line and the whole band) is a sum of any detail - however small they are - in it. Of Course Bass AMP take an important part of it.

*It's normal for me to be critized by (and critizing -or perhaps discuss it with) each other in the band I'm in (thank god we all do it maturely or I can say, we share the same passion and curiosity about "How to achieve the best possible sound (and visual image (?)) we can get" - individually and together as a band).
For me it's normal that my band's Guitar Player prefers and suggests me to use one instrument/device/sound over other - vice versa - and we sometimes really like to discuss about it a lot)

I can understand what the OP felt. But I can't understand some comments here that for me myself i feel them a bit 'childish'. I'm sorry.

Forgive my English limitation.


P.S:
JimmyM: What a Great looking SVT man Can I have a look at other pictures of it to drool, please?

[fdeck]

I'm beginning to suspect that "the audience probably can't tell the difference" is a politically correct euphemism for: "You are probably imagining the difference."

Maybe the OP's guitarist just needs to be treated with a bit of respect: "Thanks for chatting with me about amps. I've learned so much. Here's a cookie."

[bluesdogblues]

Originally Posted by Nev375

Secretly give your guitarist a blind taste test of both amps to see if his preference is consistent.

Bring your SVT in and actually play through it one session. It is a given they will prefer it.

Next session hide your other amp behind it. Theoretically, your band should notice right away. At the end of the session ask them if they are still happy with your tone.

Go back and forth a few more times. But never clue them in to what you are doing.

Then make your choice after you know for sure if your bandmates know the difference. If they actually DO notice, be a team player and stick with the SVT. If they can't tell then claim the SVT needs to go into the shop and tell them you prefer to not move it around for fear it may need further repair.

It's your gear and your choice. I'm skeptical about your guitarist too, but be prepared to be wrong.

If I do that to my bestfriend who is also the guitar player in my band, He will know.
I'm blessed to have a band with Guitar Player who has very good ears (he is also a very good producer and sound engineer himself).

But that's me LOL.

I think the best way for the OP is to discuss about it openly with his bandmates to find the best solution for himself and the band as a unit.

[nysbob]

I never hesitate give an opinion on the sonic properties of various guitar rigs, and state my preference if I have one. Real bands communicate with one another.

I think a lot of bassists have this built-in passive/aggressiveness due to largely fulfilling a support function, and boy is it ever evident in this thread.

[chadds]

OP you haven't responded to some crucial questions.
Is this troll action?
Is there a shred of truth from a tone perspective that concerns the guitarist?
Is there an image thing here that affects the marketing of your band? Do you wear flannel shirts to wedding gigs?

All this being said why play with the guitarist if he harshes your mellow?

Any successful band will have stresses greater than this!

[Nephilymbass]

Op said in the very first post that he uses a pedal with the gb. I think some people didn't read that part. If his gb (with the pedal) is pretty close to the svt which I'm sure it is if the op owned one and knows the tone then the bandmates is just being a snob. It's a given that the Gb on its own would not sound much like a all tube svt. But I have an swr amp powering my sans amp and it sounds absolutely nothing like an swr amp so I can see where the original poster is coming from

[AdamR]

heres what you do. bring the SVT and the GB to rehearsal. Tell them your going to do a blind tone test. Play a few songs through the GB. Then tell them your gonna play a few through the SVT and continue playing through the GB. $10 says the tell you the SVT sounds better. Then you can tell them you never plugged it in.

[AdamR]

Oops, I see that was suggested already. Maybe I should have read the whole thread.

[spector_boogie]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Honestly Johnny, with slight little variances in tone, I think I sound pretty much the same no matter what bass I use. Our singer just doesn't care for my other basses because they don't sustain enough, or as he calls it, "too thuddy." So that's why I don't mind too much when he states his preferences...it all sounds like me playing at the end of the day.

I have figured this out over the years, actually. And at the end of the day I don't really think I sound that bad, so it's a good thing. I grew up on a lot of red dirt/country rock, so even though I play more rock stuff my fills and runs follow more those roots and people I play with that know the difference bring it up all the time. So, I just stick to finding the tools that I think sound the best.

Also, to the OP, as others have said your band is a unit as a whole. If everyone but you says "B" sounds better than "A", it's time to listen for a sec. I have a better ear for guitar tone that even my singer/guitarist does, so he respects my opinion a lot on what to play and what tone-shaping he gets from his amp. He and my drummer just think my amps "look cool" and I know we're not on a 1:1 level as to knowledge of how tone works together. However, I have been in plenty of bands where that IS the case. My last rock cover band had 2 very good guitarists and they insisted my tone was too bassy and flubby and always wanted me to turn down as I was just coming off a 2 year country gig so that's what I was used to hearing. So, I adjusted my tone, got some gear with better Midrange and everyone was happy and I got to be louder in the mix bc I wasn't killing everyone with sub freq's.
So, just depends on the desired result and if you're being honest with yourself about it.

[garmenteros]

If your guitar players are any good pay attention to what they are saying. If you don't think a change from an ampeg svt amp to genz benz makes any difference in the band mix or enough to make you haul the svt, maybe thats simply a matter of difference in opinion and goes down to what type of band arrangement there is. I personally have tried other solid state amps and in my case there is no substitute for my acoustic 370 for my zeppelin tribute band. I've used solidstate ampegs and gk400s at rental practice spaces and no way I'd do a show with them. The amp is part of the performance.

[Codger]

From the OP it seems to me that the guitarist isn't making the request because he thinks the SVT sounds better. If so he would likely argue the point. Instead by playing off into space he is demonstrating he isn't listening to any pointless arguments. He prefers the SVT not for any logical reason but rather because of its unassailable cachet. This sort of opinion cannot be changed through reason.

OP, you have given your reasons for leaving it at home. When you are asked again don't argue, don't give reasons just say "nope" and leave it at that. Then stare off into space and play a solo or two.

[VanillaThundah]

As a tube lover myself, I don't see your stance as unreasonable at all, OP. If he wants you to play the SVT all the time so badly, tell him he can haul it around and set it up for you

[heb9_28]

Originally Posted by Bearded Wizard

All I'm advocating is the respect of our bandmates' preferences.

Originally Posted by Bearded Wizard

Since you decided to make this personal, one of the things I do is play electric blues and sing, on the bass. Like Colin Hodgkinson with a distorted tube tone (and spring reverb). And yes, the distorted sound of my Orange amp is vital to what I'm doing. I'm surprised you couldn't imagine a scenario in which it would be. They may not know I'm not a guitar player, as you said, but they dance not only because of the rhythms, but because of the expressive tones I conjure and the feeling that conveys, and yes I've tried Genz rigs and no they can't do my sound for that project.

So, if one of your bandmates in that particular setting continually gave you a hard time about your Orange amp, and told you that a SVT would sound better, I have to imagine that at some point, it would start to bother you, and I think you'd be justified! I think that is the point of the OP (who has disappeared). If he thinks his sound is better (or even the same for that matter) without the SVT, why would we assume that he just might not know how bad he sounds, and that he (probably) could sound better with the SVT?

Originally Posted by Bearded Wizard

I personally have been told that my all tube Ampeg rig sounds bad on a gig. Guess who's still gigging and getting paid and guess which soundguy is sitting at home, divorced and with nothing? I'm not saying Ampegs are the be all end all (though that argument could very feasibly be made)

...but I am saying that if you think an all tube Ampeg rig sounds bad on a gig; you'll end up sitting at home, divorced, with nothing.

(seriously just kidding there, I just thought that was funny )

[smeet]

I think there is some overreaction to the guitarist's words.
OP should listen and respond reasonably and then decide which amp to use. End of story, no drama needed.

But...

solid state snobbery

Why do you keep bringing up this phrase?
I have not seen a single instance of ANYBODY saying that solid state amps are better than tube amps. I've seen plenty of the reverse.

[B-string]

Trolling phrase? Don't think I have seen any SS user posting a pic of their amp head and saying why don't you just use a 50 watt practice amp? This ex Ampeg tube snob agrees with you smeet.

[GregC]

I'm so glad there are now TWO long threads running to address the heretofore unexplored "tube vs. ss" question.

[Raymeous]

Are they "listening with their eyes"?

It is your gear right? Does guitar guy have more amps or guitars that he does not bring to practice/gigs? If so ask him why?

This is going to be and tough one for no real reason at all. Good luck and keep smiling.

[HolmeBass]

Originally Posted by Bearded Wizard

Avoiding conflict is a valid reason. Especially when someone is making such a baseless argument as there is no difference between a Class D amp and an SVT. Even if the bass player realizes no difference, that doesn't mean that 1) there isn't any and 2) the guitarists can't recognize any. And in such a case I wouldn't argue that deference to the guitarist is such a bad thing.

We're not at war with our fellow bandmates. I don't know where this attitude of defiance came from, but it's not constructive to the band dynamic. Me personally, though I know a lot more about bass in my current band than the bandleader does, I ask him for his opinion, because it is important to me, as it should be. And, though he expresses deference to me, I would not be up in arms if he didn't. If you're your own bandleader on the bass, that's one thing (and I do this myself and have deference to no one), but most of us are sidemen and should behave professionally as such, which includes a little deference if not consideration. If you want to go lone wolf, that's fine, but the lone wolf isn't in the pack. I'm just saying, there's been a lot of poor attitudes expressed in this thread as well as a lot of solid state snobbery.

I do not feel there is a substantive difference in terms of quality or superiority between an SVT and GB Streamliner. They are in the same tone-home, and any differences at all but screaming loud volumes would be minimal and frankly, a matter of personal opinion. The OP's personal opinion is at least as valid as his guitarists' is, although you do not seem to grant it as much weight.

As far as taking a bandmate's advice on gear selection, when someone hires me, they hire my entire approach, my decisions on musical expression, and my expertise on selecting a rig. If they want someone to show up with a P bass with flats and a tube rig, they shouldn't hire me. I wouldn't let them, if that was their expectation. I'm all about being a team as a band, but really think the discussions should be kept to music. If the guitarist has a specific tonal goals, like more saturation for this song, less mids on this song, play lower on the fingerboard here because I am playing in this register, etc, that is fine to discuss and obviously a thoughtful kind of comment worth consideration. A blanket "bring the heavier, more expensive amp" is not the kind of nuanced approach to working out a set of arrangements that would indicate to me any sort of in-depth thought on his part, and is not something worth much of my consideration. The OP is obviously considering it, has stated his opinion, and even brought it here to discuss with us. Consideration does not have to equal agreement.

And if this guitarist is so conflict adverse that he can't listen to reasoning and opinions on the matter of the bassist's rig selection, even after stating his opinion on the rig (so he's obviously not *that* conflict adverse), then OP don't owe him anything. You can bend over backwards being nice to and carrying water for people who are rude to you, I will not, and I will not suggest that the OP do that either.

Lastly, I think you are displaying a palpable amount of tube snobbery yourself in this thread. Every time you mention an "obvious difference" between tube amps and class D amps pretty close by you also mention you would never gig with a Genz. Your snobbery is most evident in that you implicitly agree with this guitarist you've never met simply because you feel the SVT is superior to the GB, and you think the OP should use the SVT. Your position is transparent, petulant, and you yourself are doing everything you accuse others in this thread of doing. Please desist. You are entitled to your opinion and we all know what it is, stop trying to make us change our minds by trying to shame us in the name of some weak allegiance to 'band unity'.