Help me stop the tube snobbery in my band.

[two fingers]

Ha! Jimmy, I like you. But I would LOVE to be a fly on the wall on a night when a musician you are working with goes off on an Ampeg sucks rant as a "suggestion" as to what you should be playing through. That would be entertainment.

[fdeck]

"The reason academic politics are so bitter is that so little is at stake." -- Henry Kissinger

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by two fingers

Ha! Jimmy, I like you. But I would LOVE to be a fly on the wall on a night when a musician you are working with goes off on an Ampeg sucks rant as a "suggestion" as to what you should be playing through. That would be entertainment.

That simply wouldn't happen.



But if it did, you know what I would do? Measure how much I'm getting paid and how regularly I'd be employed by them vs. the cost of buying an amp they like. If it made monetary sense, I'd do it. If it didn't, I'd tell them if they bring it, I will play it.

But seriously, who the hell's going to tell a bass player not to bring an Ampeg? At worst, I might get, "Hey, we love the SVT, but it's a bit much for a light jazz gig in a 100 seat restaurant, isn't it?"

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by fdeck

"The reason academic politics are so bitter is that so little is at stake." -- Henry Kissinger

LOL! Tru dat!

[Nephilymbass]

The truth is the majority of touring bands don't use tube bass gear. In fact most of them that look like they are playing all ampeg gear really aren't. A lot of them have sans amps (psa or rbi) or other pre amps going to the house and their ampeg rigs are just pretty stage monitors. My rig is almost a complete copy of Phil from taproots setup. I use an swr 750x as a power amp instead of an svt4 but its essentially a sans amp into the power amp of a bass head to power an ampeg 810 i know this cause i opened for them. All that goes to the pa is a pre amp signal for most of these guys. This is why bass players can endorse a different brand every year and always have the same tone. Why you'll notice cabs on stage that don't have a microphone on the them half the time because they are going direct. Ive seen guys have peavey one tour and H&k the next and their foh sound is still all a pre amp. Mars Volta= reamped in pro tools. John from dream theatre a Demeter tube di. Ive seen victor wooten play with a avalon tube pre(not made by Hartke last I checked). The list goes on and on. It is very true that the majority of people when it comes to bass amps cannot pick out what is really what, myself included.

[Bearded Wizard]

I personally have been told that my all tube Ampeg rig sounds bad on a gig. Guess who's still gigging and getting paid and guess which soundguy is sitting at home, divorced and with nothing? I'm not saying Ampegs are the be all end all (though that argument could very feasibly be made), but I just don't understand all this anti-SVT sentiment in this thread. The OP owns an SVT, his guitar player prefers the sound of it, what is so horrible about this? The assumption that he has no reason to do so is a bad one, as I've pointed out several times. I'm not an SVT guy, but the times I've gigged through them I had a great sound which I've gotten compliments on from non-musical members from the crowd. What is so wrong about a rig that accomplishes that? I'm not telling you you can't get that with a Genz Benz, in fact if you have I'd love to hear about it, but if you're going to stake your argument on the assumption that there's no sonic difference between a Class D amp and an SVT I'd suggest you're listening with your non-scientifically founded bias and not your ears.

[makohund]

It seems really simple to me. It has nothing to do with tubes, or SVTs, or any of that.

If the bandmember's suggestion had been a serious, thoughtful, professional, meaningful, useful... *anything-ful* suggestion, it would not have been followed by the "staring off into space/soloing/noodling" bit, ignoring any reply.

If that is the extent of that person's communication, and actually caring about the response they got, then it was pure snobbery with no actual meaning or merit behind it.

And if I'm somehow wrong about that, they've failed basic communication badly enough to deserve what they get.

I'll absolutely listen to honest suggestions. Heck, I'll put up and buy something (within reason, or at least try it) if it is legit. But I won't suffer a prick for two seconds. I'll dish it right back. Aiming for funny bone at first, just in case. If the result is mutual respect or a few laughs, then all is good to go.

But if it turns out the critique is serious, and they just don't have the cahones or respect enough to actually have a conversation... screw that. I have better things to do, and adults I could be playing with instead.

[Downunderwonder]

Originally Posted by fdeck

"The reason academic politics are so bitter is that so little is at stake." -- Henry Kissinger

Classic.

fdeck for Amps Moderator!

I play tubes sometimes. My d180 does things I appreciate my Trace + BDDI don't do. I don't believe anyone in the audience could tell the difference, probaby not anyone in my bands either.

JimmyM "fooled" 1/4 of TB'ers with his soloed VT recordings. I've forgotten most of my highschool statistics but for a 50/50 guess situation that seems like a very unimpressive record for the real tubes. If we were all absolute total crap at telling the difference the result would have been 50/50 wrong, not 100% wrong. If we were all experts the result would be 100%, so I guess 50% of TB responders can tell the difference. Or not.

The sample size was very decent so there is some reliablity to the study. It proved to me that some Talkbass members can tell the difference. A rigorous analysis of the results would be very interesting.

Gong back to the OP. Band harmony is important, but so is OP's right to play what he wishes for whatever reason. The tube deficit is neither here nor there in that arguement.

To me the most distressing part of the OP is the guitards immaturity at dealing with the differing opinions on what is best for the band. To me that justifies making him into an idiot by the old hidden SS power amp trick.

But what does that do for band harmony?

I suggest you set up a blind trial. Set up both amps at same volume with your tone. You could get really carried away with double blinding it and making each trial separate, not A VS B but "is it A or is it B?" coupled to "which is A and which is B?".

Loop pedal would be handy. Or get the guitard to play the bass. Have some humble pie ready.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

Classic.

fdeck for Amps Moderator!

I play tubes sometimes. My d180 does things I appreciate my Trace + BDDI don't do. I don't believe anyone in the audience could tell the difference, probaby not anyone in my bands either.

JimmyM "fooled" 1/4 of TB'ers with his soloed VT recordings. I've forgotten most of my highschool statistics but for a 50/50 guess situation that seems like a very unimpressive record for the real tubes. If we were all absolute total crap at telling the difference the result would have been 50/50 wrong, not 100% wrong. If we were all experts the result would be 100%, so I guess 50% of TB responders can tell the difference. Or not.

I also didn't fool 73% of responders when I put the VT up against the REDDI. With a mic'ed cab, fooling people is easier. DI them and the difference is pretty apparent.

[Bearded Wizard]

Originally Posted by two fingers

No, I'm not angry. It's just my "writing style". And I don't get mad a people with whom I disagree. I cool enough in my own skin to know that not only is my opinion not the only one, but not even the most important one.

That being said, Again, I never said that there isn't a single scenario that would lend itself to a particular amp. But only that most of us are not in that scenario. I take out my Mesa Walkabout Scout stack (in very cool and tacky wine lizard tolex) as much as my other rigs. I have also played out many times with an old Fender PA100 head. And I have also taken out my Eden, GB, and Ampeg V4. And one guitar player I have done literally thousands of shows with says "No matter what you play through it always sounds like you." And I think that MOST of us are in that situation.

As for the "$50 combo with an SM57 stuck in front of it" I have seen it. There is a regional band out of Atlanta that plays up and down the eastern seaboard. They pack it in wherever they play. They are an 80's cover band with a few originals. Clubs are standing room only when they play (for more than 15 years now). The bass player literally uses the cheapo Ibanez entry level bass (less than $200) into a Rapco DI. The bass looks just like the one that comes in the beginner packs. One P bass pickup with volume and tone. And the lead guitar player (last time I saw them) had a Roland Micro Cube (either a 6" or 8" speaker) with a 57 in front of it and some cheap ESP guitar. The club owner (who I know) told me he had 425 people pay at the door the night I was there. The band got $6500 that (THURSDAY) night. They were slammed up against the stage all night and asking for more when the band was done. Their calendar is full of both club gigs and corporate stuff for big money.

Yes, that is the other extreme from your case. But relativity being what it is, the short version is that we spend all this money, time, and effort on gear for ourselves. The audience (in most cases) could care less if you perform well enough and play the right songs.

That all depends on how distinctive one's sound is and what that particular sound requires. Maybe it's just me and my crowd, as the blues crowd is generally more educated. However, I don't think you are making the argument now that Mr. Guitarist has absolutely no logical reason whatsoever to prefer a vintage Ampeg SVT over a Genz Benz Streamliner. Which is what this is all about. No one can argue that they aren't very different beasts.

[Bearded Wizard]

Originally Posted by dhsierra1

you didn't answer my question: have you heard a SVT compared to a GB SL900 in a band context?

I'm not at all bashing SVTs or any tube amp you care to mention, au contraire if you read my post. I WISH I had a SVT in my arsenal, honestly. It'll happen sometime.

I'm focusing on the guitarist's attitude which I find ignorant and repulsive, y nada mas.

We don't have all the facts from the OP, but I can tell you after 50 something years of life on this planet you will encounter people who have a very simple, rigid, bigoted and narrow outlook on life and project that on everything and everyone else.

Kinda sounds like this situation, but again, we don't have all the parameters in this equation. That said, this happens a lot, I read this thread for example.........

Have a blessed day and best to you.

I personally wouldn't use a Genz Benz in a band mix. They don't meet my criteria for the tone I want. And I find your assumption that a preference for tubes is "simple, rigid, bigoted and narrow" offensive. I've played solid state, hybrid, and tubes extensively, and I prefer tubes for my sound, and my band members prefer them as well, and if you can't accept they may have decent reasons for doing so and think instead that they are "simple, rigid, bigoted and narrow" I would say that you're a solid state snob.

[Downunderwonder]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

I also didn't fool 73% of responders when I put the VT up against the REDDI. With a mic'ed cab, fooling people is easier. DI them and the difference is pretty apparent.

Please run us through the study details. The devil is in the detail.

73% correct is not a whole lot better than random monkey guessing if the trial was identify two setups from two choices when the choices are A vs B.

[dhsierra1]

Originally Posted by Bearded Wizard

I personally wouldn't use a Genz Benz in a band mix. They don't meet my criteria for the tone I want. And I find your assumption that a preference for tubes is "simple, rigid, bigoted and narrow" offensive. I've played solid state, hybrid, and tubes extensively, and I prefer tubes for my sound, and my band members prefer them as well, and if you can't accept they may have decent reasons for doing so and think instead that they are "simple, rigid, bigoted and narrow" I would say that you're a solid state snob.

you obviously missed my points. Best to you, mate

[Bearded Wizard]

Originally Posted by dhsierra1

you obviously missed my points. Best to you, mate

And what precisely were your points meant to get across? I will never fault anyone for a communication defecit, but if you've got a point to make that you can get across, I'd love to hear it. I think in this thread there's been a lot of solid state snobbery displayed, please correct me if I'm wrong. There seems to be alot of talk focused on the idea that no one can tell a difference between class D and all tube, and in my experience that simply isn't the case.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

Please run us through the study details. The devil is in the detail.

73% correct is not a whole lot better than random monkey guessing if the trial was identify two setups from two choices when the choices are A vs B.

The thread is still up. Decide for yourself.

[makohund]

prefer a vintage Ampeg SVT over a Genz Benz Streamliner. Which is what this is all about.

No it isn't. It isn't about Ampegs or GB. It isn't about tubes vs solid state. Doesn't really matter what all of those details happen to be.

It's about snobbery.

A lot of posters seem to be trying to make it something else, and are springing into action to debate some of the aforementioned details... but that's really all it is.

If the guy (Mr Guitarist) wasn't being an ass to him, there would be no issue to post here.

[Bearded Wizard]

Originally Posted by makohund

No it isn't. It isn't about Ampegs or GB. It isn't about tubes vs solid state. Doesn't really matter what all of those details happen to be.

It's about snobbery.

A lot of posters seem to be trying to make it something else, and are springing into action to debate some of the aforementioned details... but that's really all it is.

If the guy (Mr Guitarist) wasn't being an ass to him, there would be no issue to post here.

Again you're assuming the guitarist has no valid reason for his preference, which I've said many times is a bad assumption.

[Downunderwonder]

Guitarist's behaviour gives the lie to that. Why resort to shutting down discussion by soloing into space?

[HolmeBass]

No, Bearded Wizard, we're assuming the guitarist had no valid reason to stare off into space and solo while his bass player explained why he's using the rig he's using.

And you keep saying what we're assuming, you are assuming the guitarist does have a point based solely off of your personal opinion, with which I disagree. The OP stated plainly that *for him* he doesn't realize a sonic difference between the SVT and GB until he is playing at a high volume- too high for most of their gigs.

[Bearded Wizard]

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

Guitarist's behaviour gives the lie to that. Why resort to shutting down discussion by soloing into space?

As I've said I don't fault people for having bad communication skills, and especially if they're avoiding conflict. No impression that I have been given in this thread tells me the OP has been reasonable about the suggestion given, nor, as I have suggested, if he desired to keep the SVT as a collectors item and not gig it, expressed that to the guitarist. Our guitarists aren't perfect, and neither are we. But we have to work together. Assuming that you're right isn't discussion.