Help - What is the VALUE of upgrading to a top of the line amp?

[synkronized1]

Hi everyone. Regular lurker to the forums. This is a fantastic resource with some clearly smart bass folks. I'm hoping to draw on some of that insight with this question... I've been playing an SVT 3 Pro for about a year. Played quite a few bar, wedding gigs where I've either gone direct into the board or just played without a PA. I have dialed in a good sound and think the amp is good. It seems to lose a lot of definition (is this headroom?) when I turn it up but assume this is expected as it's not a terribly powerful amp from what I understand. I run it into a 4x10 ampeg.

I'd like to upgrade into something a bit more powerful. My thought is that with something bigger I can reach higher volumes and still maintain the clarity of the awesome tone I currently get. Besides the cost and additional weight of the SVT CL or VR, what other considerations should I be looking at when comparing these two amps? I've read tons of great reviews of both and it seems like the tone is awesome and if you steer clear of the Vietnam/Korea models reliability isn't an issue.

I guess my question is this... why would someone want to upgrade from the SVT Pro (or another comparable mid-powered amp) into something more gutsy and top of the line. What VALUE does one get out of an amp that is $1500-$2000 vs a $500 model?

FYI, I play in a rock cover band with a P 57 reissue (that I LOVE btw). Thanks everyone.

[NYCbassist]

Many Bass players are looking for a specific sound. It's what sounds good to their ears on stage. Out on the dance floor, there's simply just not that much difference especially when the band is in full swing. I think the audience should be able to hear every bass note and also feel it. That can be achieved by any amp that has enough power. Ampegs are famous for a great tone that sounds good to many bass players. Going up in price should get you plenty more power unless you go All tube. I run a Hartke LH1000 with 2 500 watt power sections. It cost me $425 delivered brand new. My Carvin BX500 is 500 watts and plenty loud enough for most gigs. I don't see a need for me to ever buy anything else but I love my tone through either Amp.

[bgavin]

If you are Value conscious, the first pitfall to avoid is buying New.
Check the resale prices on your chosen top of the line product.
If you have the patience, buying Used is worth the effort.

On the flip side, the top of the line product is most likely the highest quality.
If you plan to keep it for years, then Buy Once and Cry Once is OK.

Weight and service issues are points to consider.
Lugging about a 70 pound head does get old.
My QSC MX3000a weighed 69 pounds bare, and it was indeed a PIA at loadout time.
Replacing tubes and having them biased by a tech gets old and expensive.
I am not an Ampeg guy, so I don't know if these issues apply or not. Check them out.

For me, reliability is King, followed by sufficient output power.
I also know that most of the noise is made in the first hundred watts, and gains rapidly diminish as the power rating increases.
This is where more cabinets has value.
Also, I use separates so I can change tone with various pre-amps and keep the same power section.

My gear is paid off, reliable, and flexible enough to warrant keeping for the long term.
When I die, I hope my wife does not sell my toys for what I told her I paid for them...

[i_got_a_mohawk]

For me, getting an SVT was nothing to do with monetary value, more for personal satisfaction.

Having a sound I enjoy more makes playing more enjoyable. The way it sits in the band makes the sound from the band more enjoyable (IMO).

[rubbadubdub]

Gear snobs will take you more seriously. If your previous amp was half decent already, then not much else. Ampeg, TC Electronic, Ampeg and Trace Elliot have always been good enough for me. The further up the chain you go the more you pay for the least amount of improvement. After a certain point you are really just paying a lot of money for a badge or logo.
In my experience the divide between cost and quality of sound is getting narrower all the time. Peavey have made some nice sounding cabs but most gear snobs wouldn't be seen dead with such common gear. Oh well if they have to work extra hours for the man it's up to them.

[RickenBoogie]

In this specific case, the first question I'd ask the op is WHICH Ampeg 4x10 he's using? If it's the hlf, that's a very bottom heavy cab, and may not seem as loud as you'd like. If it's an he, that's an 8 ohm cab, meaning you're not getting the full power from your 3Pro. Then the amp itself. In order to get the most out of it, you want to crank that gain knob up fairly high, and avoid any bass boost. As an aside, going from the 3Pro to an all tuber, you're actually going DOWN in wattage. First thing to do is figure the spkr cab thing out. Go from there.

[synkronized1]

FYI, I'm running the SVT 3 Pro into a 410HLF.

Great feedback so far. Thanks everyone.

[recreate.me]

The few above have already pointed out the basics. Most people (90%, and probably the rest of the band) won't notice to much of a difference when you switch amps, unless its something completely different tone wise. Also, price really doesn't correlate to headroom, as you can get lots of headroom from <1000$ amps.

In terms of VALUE, i would say that unless you get a great deal, or buy used, there amount of value decreases as you move up to the top of the line amps, especially if you don't have a top of the line bass and cab and pedals.

Why send a signal from your amazing TOL amp to your 300$ B series ampeg? You won't be hearing that signal as it's meant to be heard so your loosing a lot of value there.

Its a hard lesson to learn, but typically your the only one who cares about your sound, so if can get compliments without spending big bucks, I would just keep it that way or you'll end up broke lol

[Russell L]

[Originally posted by bgavin: "When I die, I hope my wife does not sell my toys for what I told her I paid for them..."]

Best potential sig line I've seen, pal. LOL. And Amen to that, too.

[VanillaThundah]

Originally Posted by bgavin

Weight and service issues are points to consider.
Lugging about a 70 pound head does get old.
...
Replacing tubes and having them biased by a tech gets old and expensive.

To the OP: Please don't let the "OMG you have to service all-tube heads all the time!!!" myth get to you. A well-made tube amp by a reputable company will not come with garbage tubes that need to be replaced every year. Yeah, if you or a tech set them to run too hot they will definitely get worn out faster...but a US made SVT will last you for years to come without needing a re-tube.

A lot of times people will try a different brand of tube, trying to chase the "golden tone" that they believe NOS, super high grade, or JAN tubes will deliver. A decent quality tube put in a good quality amp won't need rebiasing unless it's a different kind of tube (i.e. - going from 6L6 to KT88s).

I say all of this to tell you this, you need to try some for yourself. One thing that I literally CANNOT get around is just the headroom and dynamics of a 100% tube amp. Tube amps are just so plug-and-play for me that I find myself not caring about the weight even though I'm not a big guy. An SVT is quite a lug for me, but I'd gig the HELL out of a V4B, Traynor YBA200-2, Fender 100T, Orange AD200B, or even a retubed Bugera 1960. Some people just don't like tube amps, and that's fine, but some people prefer them and find themselves in the unfortunate position of not being able to settle for anything less than. All that heavy lifting will get you some wicked guns though!

[klokker]

Originally Posted by synkronized1

FYI, I'm running the SVT 3 Pro into a 410HLF.

Great feedback so far. Thanks everyone.

My experience with a 410hlf is that its a pretty "muddy" cab. Huge low end, too huge for me, i.e. no definition.

You might be barking up the wrong tree. Maybe a different cab is the issue.

[Muttleybass]

IMO, it's about what works for every individual. I bought a GK800rb almost 30 years ago and it's worked for me ever since. Changed the cab a few times...

There's nothing wrong with an SVT Pro. In a cover band, you don't really need more than 300w and your pushing 450. I can't understand how you would need more power in a cover band situation. To me, amps sound better if they run turned up. Most guys love a 410 and I see that in the clubs all the time. Anything else you could go direct.

I don't think you need to upgrade the head at all. You have enough power for any situation (except maybe arenas). Like Klokker just said, maybe try a different 410.

[jeff7bass]

Quality 12" cabs are the way to go, topped with a powerful well-built head (500+ watts). Small gig, use one and leave one in the car. Larger gigs, stack'em. You'll hear yourself better than ever (with mids that cut) and the tone is sweeeeeeeeeet.

[hennessybass]

I think of that question like this...

A used honda civic will not cost that much, will last you for years if you treat it right, and will get you from point A to point B. So why would you buy a more expensive car?

Same with an amp... a mid level 350w head will not cost that much, will last you as long as you take care of it, and will make your bass sound loud.

But some people like to go mudding, and buy bad ass jeeps with huge tires, and some people like to make audience ears bleed, and buy 1000watt amps with huge cabs. Some people like to drive luxury cars, and some people like to play hand build boutique amps.

[beans-on-toast]

The amp and how you hear yourself inspires you when playing. How you interact with what you hear makes all the difference. The right gear allows you to optimize how you do this. Finding what's right is a very personal thing. It can be a long and often never ending journey. Some folks are lucky, they lock into exactly what works for them early on.

I think that you owe it to yourself to go to a shop and try your current amp with an 810. You will gain volume without having to crank your amp so loud, this will help keep your sound clean and provide you with some headroom. Once you've experienced a wall of sound, try a smaller high tech cab and see what you think. An SVT CL or VR do have a lot to offer. They provide a classic bass tone that so many players look for.


My point is, you have to try everything you can and see what works best for you. Find what you need first, then decide if the cost can be justified.

[Raymeous]

Go shopping and try everything, even off brand stuff until you find what YOU like.

For me there is a point where you're no longer paying for the gear but the little plastic logo that will earn you cool points with the gear snobs but not necessarily a better piece of equipment.

Playing a 6 string in a prog format, I like a clean and articulate sound so my current set up (Carvin BX1500 and BRX10.4 Neo cab) is perfect for me. This is probably the polar opposite of the classic P-Bass + Ampeg sound however.

[Abrahampost]

Originally Posted by jeff7bass

Quality 12" cabs are the way to go, topped with a powerful well-built head (500+ watts). Small gig, use one and leave one in the car. Larger gigs, stack'em. You'll hear yourself better than ever (with mids that cut) and the tone is sweeeeeeeeeet.

I couldn't agree more. For me I have run plenty of mid level heads... carvins, aguilar tone hammer, trace elliot, swr. The one thing that made them sounds fantastic to me is my aguilar 2x12. I messed around with 10s and 15s but the 2x12 just seemed to have the best balance for a single cab set up. Really when it comes down to it play what you think sounds nice and make sure to try a ton of stuff. I have never been an ampeg guy but have heard plenty of great players and tone out of them at shows.

[IMeMine]

Two things to remember: 1, tube power isn't the same as solid state power when it comes to volume. My 300 W SVT was about twice the volume as my 500 W MarkBass. 2, if you need that volume you run through the PA.

Also, what guys are saying about the importance of the cabinet is very true. I ran SWR speakers for years until I discovered how muddy they are - switching cabinets did more for my sound than anything else.

[Eminor3rd]

Just add another 4x10. Trust me. You only need to upgrade the amp if you need the wattage to drive both cabs.

[B-string]

Loosing definition at higher volumes can be: Speaker cab running into power compression (more power will make this worse better cabs needed). Boundary effect as frequencies are bounced back to the origin point (again more power makes it worse, re-orient cabs). Natural tube compression that people call "louder tube watts". Over load of the human ear drums (use ear plugs).

IMHO try a better cab first.